DCA, Future Expansion
Topic: Why is Disney's California Adventure a failure?

#	Author	Message
91	Jim in Pasadena CA Fri 10/22/2004 9:50p	<You want to get my passion up? Come into a thread and start bashing the central tenet of the thread. It's such a bombastically haughty and arrogant thing to do, so lacking in disrespect to the original poster and those who are ENGAGING in accord with the original poster...> I got your back on that, Arstogas. Couldn't agree more. And it happens all the time here. It happened when the 'Winnie the Pooh' attraction opened. Posters would come in and tell me how 'wrong' I was for 'Pooh' attraction, and how it WAS just as good as the other dark rides in Disneyland, and clearly, I just didn't get it. Well, for me, I don't get why these threads that are a bit critical about DCA get so much attention from those who don't want to be critical of DCA. If someone wants to go to DCA and enjoy it as it is right now, that's fine by me. Enjoy! But don't get on my case if I choose to take a closer look at the park and point out some of the inherent flaws in its' design and execution. And food! On the contrary thenurmis, the Golden Vine Winery restaurants have gotten increasingly worse since opening day. When Mondavi was there, the upstairs location was absolutely superb. The Wine Country Trattoria has dropped in both food quality and service. It's just not as good as it once was. If you like them, that's cool. Say what you will, Disney's California Adventure is one of the most fascinating theme parks in the history of Disney Theme Parks. And it's not because of its' fanstastic theme, brilliant execution, unique attractions and un-paralleled popularity. And if you don't want to talk about the flaws, odd choices, and sub-par food at DCA, start another thread! As I've mentioned here ad nauseum, why enter into a topic that you don't like? I don't take part in the threads with titles like 'The Almighty Churro' or 'Daisy or Minnie?' -- so I avoid them. And I'd expect those in that discussion to get upset if I were to barge in and counter everything they've been discussing. It's a shame that there are only 7,745 threads to choose from.
92	thenurmis Fri 10/22/2004 11:05p	arstogas Oh you are having fun with this one arn't you. Seems to be that you have let your passion get hold of your focus, You have spent the vast amount of your posts targeting my writing skills, as apposed to the points I questioned This idea that DCA is a failure, due to missed goals in attendance, is workable only if it applies to all Disneyland resorts that have done the same. in that context are all the parks a failure? It is not an orig. thought, the question of DCA's success being rated on it attendance has been stated befor. it is repeated, or redundent. As are most of the anti-DCA topics started (NOT ALL) I had hoped that this thread might provide some new piont, it didn't, although some of the posters did a great job stating their facts with some well thought out research. You how ever have dropped to the level of name calling to state your point which is ...if I don't like, or share your ideas, I am a "pompous, ill-informed and presumptive".... "ridiculously simplistic and shallow"...."odious"..."filled with hyperbole"..."clearly a person whose disconnect from the stated principles of the discussion is so evident it's become almost embarrassing"... Great use of the english langage, but not too on topic. If you think I am insulted by your comments, or feel overwhelmed by you writing prowess sorry, I'm not too concerned. The continuing idea that condeming DCA on a web site is going to make it true is folly. If the park makes no money, and can not last. your points might hold some merit in the future. but for now they ar the musings of a arm chair designer having some fun on a friday afternoon.
93	ModHatter Sat 10/23/2004 12:38a	Plano, True, a radical expansion may not be coming in the next few years. However, the oft-repeated rumor is that HPB is getting a new Monsters, Inc dark ride. What this has to do with Hollywood, I certainly don't know. What is worse, they apparently couldn't get the new ride vehicle to work properly and meet capacity needs, so instead, they are most likely just going to recycle those limos and really schmuck up. The proposed Frontierland model, on the other hand, has so much going for it. While all three rides will likely not be unveiled at once a la the infamous Tomorrowland makeovers, it sounds as though they would begin the expansion and have a short multi-year plan. I think I was going to mention this in another thread, but it makes sense here. When a company builds a mall, or for the sake of argument, reinvigorates an existing mall like Buena Park Mall, they don't just build the anchor stores and build the second- and third-string stores later. They create the entire structure, demonstrate that they have a large enough market, and add stores to the existing structure. This is the kind of thinking that SHOULD have gone on at DCA from day 1 of its design. Too late. But, DCA could make a very fiscally responsible move and redevelop, say, from Pacific Wharf east. Link it up to HPB. Build one D or E ticket. Then you take your next plot of land and advertise a new attraction due in a year or two. From the time you break ground, you should have three new rides, an entirely new land, and a radical improvement to park infrastructure, in six years max. Disneyland has had its fair share of attention. While I would like to see Frontierland get something new, I think management AND guests will get more out of it if they use that kind of budgeting to make a dramatic course adjustment for DCA first.
94	oc_dean Sat 10/23/2004 2:55a	>>The park is as much a failure as Disneland was during it's first few years<< Not a major point here .. but I thought I'd just let you know thenurmis .. that is not true. I've had one prominent financial executive who worked closely with Roy for many years, up until his death in 1971, sit me down one warm evening in the valley (Burbank area) ... and tell me some great stories. One of them ... where armored trucks would pick up the cash backstage .... as Disneyland was (really!!) rolling in dough in it's first few weeks .... into it's first few years. From one of my quotes: >> "Don't believe me, just ask some other long time posters about stories that broke out .. and ended up here .. about accounts of Mr. Eisner setting the stage for the most meager park possible" This is some of the lets throw in a hit on Mike, to lay down grounds for his removal, at the exspence of the park. << No ... not this time around. I can't remember the names. I've read so many "DCA" topics in that hot debate period here between 2000 to early 2002 .. I can't recall some of the higher level execs .. who left the company .. and went on the record to confirm what we have been speculating here. Former company heads that confirmed what Michael Eisner's exact intentions were. Creating a brand new precedent in the way a Disney park would be created from inception to opening. On top of the stories that eventually made headlines .. I myself began hearing the stories from themed entertainment industry people here in LA between 2002 & 2003 .. as those "closed door" discussions (when DCA was in development) began leaking out. And several of these higher up "voices" curled my hair, to say the least, to say ... That DCA was never intended to be built from the traditional mindset that built DL on up through AK ... but clearly from an accounting point-of-view "Business/bottom-line" model. Well ... the finished product as revealed on Feb 11, 2001 definitely shows that "Produce most cost effective product to maximize profits" mindset. From dwindling the "Circle of Hands" revolving carousel theater "American Adventure" type show .. to a widescreen 70mm film presentation "Golden Dreams" .... as one example of the cost cutting that ran rampant in the project -- All of which .. a contrast to WDI's other project at the time with true traditional Disney standards - Tokyo DisneySea. I can understand you, thenurmis, to a point, where you are "over it" with some of the DCA debating. There are many posters who have hung on for a while .... we can't seem to get enough of LP. When we've been around this long .. eventually .. certain subjects do become old. I don't see much harm in this discussion, though. I see worse things going on in World Events. If you think this discussion is on your nerves ;) .. go check out that forum that makes the Hot Caffeinated DCA debates of 2000 thru 2002 look like a cup of luke warm decaf coffee.
95	tangaroa Sat 10/23/2004 7:58a	>This idea that DCA is a failure, due >to missed goals in attendance, is >workable only if it applies to all >Disneyland resorts that have done the >same. in that context are all the >parks a failure? The other Disney parks don't have set attendance goals. At least not in the same public sense that DCA did. With the other parks whenever attendance is over 10 million we hear about how absolutely WONDERFUL it is. Or in Disney speak they call it a "record attendance year." They don't readily come out and say "We want this park to be at this level by this time." But that's exactly what they did with DCA. Most of the top executives were bragging about DCA's 7 million figure. So confident they were - that they designed the entire park based on that 7 million figure. They thought they knew how many people would come before they even designed the place. The number of shops and restaurants and even attractions were all derived from that 7 million figure. The fact that they were wrong had a huge impact on the park right from the start. Entertainment and food options had to be cut back that first summer and as too did operating hours. That only further hurt the experience which resulted in fewer crowds. It was a colossal blunder and perhaps the number one reason DCA ended up being such a failure (how's that for answering the original question). >The continuing idea that condeming DCA >on a web site is going to make it true >is folly. If the park makes no money, >and can not last. your points might >hold some merit in the future. Condemning DCA isn't the problem. DCA is the problem. Some seem to believe that DCA would be a wonderfully successful park if not for all the people saying bad things about it. You gotta look at it the other way around - people say bad things about it because it's a bad park. As for the money issue - remember that the So Cal resort was not making money in the last quarter. Now surely the 50th preparations have taken a huge chunk of the money out of Disneyland's profits, but wouldn't you think the money from DCA would be enough to offset the cost of refurbishments in Disneyland? Apparently DCA isn't even making enough money to pay for new paint at Disneyland - and that's gotta be a problem. And where are the trees? There are more trees along the tram route than in all of DCA.
96	thenurmis Sat 10/23/2004 9:14a	Great feed back, and thanks, Oc dean your point on the rolling in the cash, is new to me, I was aware that the park did well money wise for the start up, but that puts it in to a neat perspective. I will do a bit of research and see if I can find some of the old news paper clips from around the time, the feed back there was not as kind as the feed back from guests. I remember reading stories about the "folly" with great amazment, thinking are they talking about the same park as I. I guess thats what fires me up abut these DCA threads, I read a lot of (all) the posts, and find it hard some times to beleave we are talking about the same park. I did not receive my share holders report this year, (I don't often read them anyway), but does anyone have "real" information on how the park is doing? in the red or black, trending up, or down? If I was to rely on the info from the neg. DCA threads only, I would figure that it is knocking on deaths door. Tangaroa, I know that you did make comment that the DLR is not making money, is there a break down? as to what parts are not holding their own? Is it the Hotels,"mall", DL,DCA, or all? I know that there were huge holes in the mall on my last visit, and DLH as near a ghost town.
97	arstogas Sat 10/23/2004 4:22p	>>>arstogas Oh you are having fun with this one arn't you.<<< Hardly. It's not fun at all to find your compatriots belittled with disregard by someone who doesn't have a full or contextual grasp of FACTS to even defend their silly personal attacks. >>>as apposed to the points I questioned<<< Well, then, let's go into THIS episodes points, shall we? >>>This idea that DCA is a failure, due to missed goals in attendance, is workable only if it applies to all Disneyland resorts that have done the same.<<< BUZZ! WRONG! All the resorts have NOT failed in attendance to the extraordinary degree that DCA has suffered... only ONE, DisneyStudios Paris, has caused such concern that major issues have had to be addressed in a "yellow alert" mentality. The other drops in attendance at various Disney parks were PREDICTED, largely, or expected, by Disney management at those parks, due to trends in travel and/or the economy, and of course residual effects after 9/11 (in that they were able to predict very shortly AFTER 9/11, and correctly, that tourism would ebb.) >>>in that context are all the parks a failure?<<< To underscore, NO, because the context you postulate is incorrect. >>>It is not an orig. thought, the question of DCA's success being rated on it attendance has been stated befor. it is repeated, or redundent. As are most of the anti-DCA topics started (NOT ALL) I had hoped that this thread might provide some new piont, it didn't, although some of the posters did a great job stating their facts with some well thought out research.<<< A half-hearted effort to justify your very rude and insulting assault on the very MERIT of Darkbeer's posting the thread in the first place... which then you couldn't defend, so you took to pithy insults or unfounded "contexts" to try sleight of hand - distracting us from the fact that YOU, sir, are the one insulting the rest of us. And you did so without even the respect to proofread your posts. As your wife said, how dare YOU try to make this into something else. >>>You how ever have dropped to the level of name calling to state your point which is ...if I don't like, or share your ideas, I am a "pompous, ill-informed and presumptive".... "ridiculously simplistic and shallow"...."odious"..."filled with hyperbole"..."clearly a person whose disconnect from the stated principles of the discussion is so evident it's become almost embarrassing"...<<< It's name-calling in so much as it connotes the BEHAVIOR and CHARACTERISTIC TONE of the person doing such things, which you clearly have. >>>If you think I am insulted by your comments, or feel overwhelmed by you writing prowess sorry, I'm not too concerned.<<< I could care less whether you feel insulted. I care more that you treat others on future threads with more respect. Your kind of intrusion is not in keeping with the happy, pluralistic atmosphere that's sought on LP. >>>The continuing idea that condeming DCA on a web site is going to make it true is folly.<<< Your opinion, and it still gives you not one right, whatsoever, to come into a thread, insult the merit of the poster and the threads right to exist. That's haughty and arrogant, and your refusal to see such DOES render you obtuse. >>> the musings of a arm chair designer having some fun on a friday afternoon.<<< Ah, it seems I'm not the only one hurling insults. Armchair designer? Having designed in outdoor and themed entertainment, theater, filmed entertainment, and directed for animation and live-action, and that the only major medium I've NOT done professional design work for is television, it's apparent that once again, your context and your facts and your assertions are coming from a wholly uninformed and vapid vantage point. At least in that, you're consistently reliable.
98	arstogas Sat 10/23/2004 4:24p	By the way, thank you, Jim, and WDW1974, I was waiting for that post... not necessarily from you, but it made me laugh anyway, so in case you're wondering, no hard feelings... You're right, DCA does have its merits, even if they did design it as a glorified shopping mall (and spent LESS on it than many shopping malls).
99	crapshoot Sun 10/24/2004 7:42a	<<This idea that DCA is a failure, due to missed goals in attendance, is workable only if it applies to all Disneyland resorts that have done the same. in that context are all the parks a failure?>> What constitutes a failure in DCA? How about that prior to the DLR expansion, Disneyland Park used to make annual profits in the neighborhood of $90 million for the Walt Disney Company. Since DCA has opened, the resort is lucky to make an annual profit anywhere near $10 million. Oh and by the way, TOT did not increase attendance for DCA this past summer season. Go figure.
100	RoadTrip Sun 10/24/2004 8:23a	<<How about that prior to the DLR expansion, Disneyland Park used to make annual profits in the neighborhood of $90 million for the Walt Disney Company. Since DCA has opened, the resort is lucky to make an annual profit anywhere near $10 million.>> Source please? And how much of that is due to Disneyland Park attendance being down since 9/11? Every U.S. Disney Park has suffered major attendance drops (and I would presume, lost profitability) since 9/11. You CAN'T blame it all on DCA.

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