DCA, Future Expansion
Topic: Why is Disney's California Adventure a failure?

#	Author	Message
401	davewasbaloo Wed 10/26/2005 12:41p	Let's see how the counts work for me: DL 14: DLRR Mark Twain PotC HM IASW Splash Jungle Cruise Indy Tiki Room BTM Matterhorn Star Tours Fireworks Fantasmic MK 11: Jungle Cruise PotC Splash BTM Country Bears Hall of Presidents HM Philharmagic Carousel of Progress Spectromagic Fireworks TDL 8: Jungle Cruise PotC BTM Splash Pooh HM Star Tours Dreamlights DLP 11.5: PM BTM DLPRR Tarzan PotC IASW Castle and Dragon Legend of the Lion King Star Tours Space Mountain Fantillusion (though I miss MSEP) Fireworks (though we rarely have them .5 point) HKDL 2: Jungle Cruise Philharmagic Epcot 12: Spaceship Earth Universe of Energy Mission Space Test Track Living Seas The Land Imagination El Rio del Tiempo Maelstrom Wonders of China Impressions de France Illuminations Disney/MGM Studios 7.5: TOT RNRC Muppetvision 3D Tram Tour GMR Motors Action Indy (ish - 0.5) WWTBAMPI DAK 6: Kilamenjaro Safari Pengani Forest Exploration Trail Maharaja Jungle Trek ITTBAB Dinosaur Kali River Rapids WDS 6.5: Cinemagique Armageddon Tram Tour RNRC Moteurs Action Art of Animation Animagique (with kids 0.5) TDS (based on want to see as I have not yet been) 8: 20K JTTCOTE Sinbad Storm Rider Indy Blazing Rhythms Little Mermaid Show Braveseamo DCA 8: Muppetvision 3D Animation Aladdin TOT Soaring Grizzly ITTBAB Screaming So if we went on must do counts, the following would win: 1. Disneyland 2. Epcot 3. Disneyland Paris 4. Magic Kingdom 5. TDL/TDS/DCA!!!! 8. Disney MGM 9. WDS 10. DAK 11. HKDL Funny thing is, my favs are in this order: 1. DL/Epcot 3. DLP 4. DAK 5. DCA 6. WDS 7. MK 8. DisneyMGM TDL, TDS and HKDL are not ranked as I have not yet experienced their offerings.
402	idleHands Wed 10/26/2005 3:38p	"Road Trip is right, the park is something differenty, just like EPCOT, MGM, and Animal Kingdom." But I would much rather go to every one of those other parks than DCA. As far as domestic Disney parks go, DCA is at the bottom of my list. And "being different" has nothing to do with it. DAK is about as different as you can get for a Disney park. Nothing else Disney has done is remotely like it. But it's far more enjoyable to me, than DCA. Spending a full day in DAK is delightful, even just walking around and taking in the rich, detailed theming and ambience it creates, without doing any shows or attractions. I've done precisely that, several times. But spending more than a half-day at DCA is a waste of time. And just walking around is rather boring and exhausting. The Grizzly Peak area is pretty, as are the lights at night in the Pier. But that's about it. The rest is fairly empty, sparse, and bland. "Did you hear about the new restaurant on the Moon? They're calling it 'DCA,' because it lacks atmosphere."
403	WorldDisney Wed 10/26/2005 10:53p	<<The way I see it, people wrote off DCA because it wasn't the WESTCOT or Disney Seas parks that TDA was considering building, so because people got so attached to those ideas they immediately refuse to like anything in DCA.>> But see, I just don't buy that. SURE, the people HERE who talks about DL everyday and are big fans, I can see that. BUT, I highly, highly doubt the other 80% of regular guests who choose NOT to enter DCA when they go to DL is really 'upset' about not getting Westcot if they even know it at all. When I talk about DCA or any theme park, I try very hard to talk about it from an regular guest POV unless I say so otherwise because let's not kid ourselves, the online folks is just a small minority. So it's not really 'us' that is making a park a sucess or failure, its the general public who has basically said to themseleves that DCA just isn't worth the price of the admission ticket that DL is, period. <<Road Trip is right, the park is something differenty, just like EPCOT, MGM, and Animal Kingdom.>> And here is the thing: I LIKE those parks, very much. I been in those parks more times I been in DCA and I'm FROM L.A. I don't know what makes them more enjoyable to me, but I really like them. I just don't think DCA is a very good Disney park, sorry to say.
404	karlg Thu 10/27/2005 4:28a	RE: 382 by RoadTrip <snipped> >>> Soarin' Screamin' Animation Building Muppets 3D Tough to be a Bug Grizzly River Run Tower of Terror That is a lineup of sever very impressive "major attractions". Now if you want to blow them off just because they exist somewhere else, that is your choice. But NEVER claim that DCA has nothing more than mad mouse coasters, carnival swings, balloon spinners and bumper cars. <<< While you may personally think these are "impressive," the public in general has voted with their feet. In particular Muppets, TTBAB, Animation, and to an extent even ToT have failed to draw much of a crowd. "Counting" Muppets would be like counting Star Tours, they are both past their prime (and even here, Star Tours when it opened was a block buster where Muppets 3D was good but not great in terms of crowd draw). As others have pointed out, the non-E tickets lineup at DL is much better (as measure by people want to go on them) than at DCA. And then there is the whole atmosphere of DL and the ability to put on a good parade and great nightime shows (fireworks and Fantasmic). The fact is that whole of DCA works for many Disney park goers as one more land at DL. They pop over to do Screamin'and Soarin' and sometimes GRR and/or ToT or Aladdin. Then it is back to DL.
405	WorldDisney Thu 10/27/2005 6:02a	^^Yeah, that's the problem, for many, its ALWAYS back to DL ;).
406	Darkbeer Thu 10/27/2005 8:17a	Lets compare what Disneyland offers, versus DCA in regards to attractions and ticket book value, here is my opinion... OK, if we are going to talk "tickets", we have to understand that the system basically is designed to rank the attractions into values, the original decisions mainly looked at the cost of the attraction, the length of the experience and the popularity of the attraction with the guests. Certain attractions sponsored by firms had "free" tickets available in the ticket books (I can think of Mr. Lincoln, Carousel of Progress and Adventure thru Inner Space as big attractions that at one time were free) SO, you need a spread of some "A" attractions, "B" attractions, "C" attractions, "D" attractions and of course "E" attractions... I am going to base my own PERSONAL ratings based on the original system, with the understanding that some rides would be lowered, just like they did when tickets were available (Country Bear started as an "E", and was lowered to a "D".... Here are some resources... http://www.yesterland.com http://www.perrific.com/disney /tickets/tickets.html OK, using the list in the current Guide to the Magic... DISNEYLAND... MAIN STREET USA Disneyland Railroad - "D" (Still one of the most popular rides, keeps rating from the 70's) Main Street Cinema - "A" Main Street Vehicles - "A" (one ticket per each one way trip on any of the four vehicles) The 50th Anniversary Exhibt in the Opera House - "Free" ticket with the purchase of any ticket book - to help drive folks to see a piece of history, just like they did in the 70's MICKEY'S TOONTOWN Chip 'n Dale Treehouse - "A" Donald's Boat - "A" Gadget's Go Coaster - "D" Goofy's Bounce House - "B" Jolly Trolley - "A" Mickey's House - "C" (Due to interaction with Mickey) Minnie's House - "B" (Due to the LACK of interaction) Roger Rabbit's Car Toon Spin - "E" ADVENTURELAND Enchanted Tiki Room - "D" Indiana Jones Adventure - "E" Jungle Cruise - "D" Tarzan's Treehouse - "B" NEW ORLEANS SQUARE Haunted Mansion - "E" Pirates of the Caribbean - "E" The Disney Gallery - Free (not an attraction IMHO, but a shop) CRITTER COUNTRY Splash Mountain - "E" Davy Crockett's Explorer Canoes - "D" The Many Adventures of Winnie the Pooh - "C" (to match the other dark rides in Fantasyland, would be higher if they built the TDL Pooh's Hunny Hunt instead) FRONTIERLAND Big Thunder Mountain Railroad - "E" Fantasmic! - Once again, NOT an attraction, but an entertainment show, free with admission Frontierland Shootin' Exposition - "C" Mark Twain Steamboat - "D" Rafts to Tom Sawyer Island - "C" Sailing Ship Columbia - "D" The Golden Horseshoe Stage - Free, once again entertainment, just like they treated it since the park opened TOMMORROWLAND Astro Orbitor - "C" Autopia - either a "C" or a Free due to sponsorship Monorail - "D" Honey, I Shrunk the Audience - "D" or Free due to sponsorship Innoventions - Free exhibit Space Mountain - "E" Starcade - Once again, not an attraction, but an arcade that takes quarters Star Tours - "D" Buzz Lightyear Astro Blasters - "D" FANTASYLAND Alice in Wonderland - "B" Casey Jr. Circus Train - "B" Dumbo the Flying Elephant - "C" Fantasyland Theater - Free, Once again, Entertainment, not an attraction it's a small world - "E" (maybe a "D", due to reduction of waiting time) King Arthur's Carrousel - "A" Sleeping Beauty's Castle Walkthrough - "A" Mad Tea Party - "C" Matterhorn Bobsleds - "E" Mr. Toad's Wild Ride - "C" Peter Pan's Flight - "C" Pinocchio's Daring Journey - "B" Snow White's Scary Adventures - "B" Storybook Land Canal Boats - "C" DISNEY'S CALIFORNIA ADVENTURE PARADISE PIER California Screamin' - "E" Games of the Boardwalk - Once again, not an attraction, but arcade games with a fee Golden Zepher - "B" Jumpin Jellyfish - "B" King Triton's Carousel - "A" Maliboomer - "C" Mulholland Madness - "C" Orange Stinger - "B" S.S. rustworthy - "A" Sun Wheel - "C" HOLLYWOOD PICTURES BACKLOT Disney Animation - "D" Hyperion Theater - FREE - Once again, not an attraction, entertainment was included in the general admission price back when there was "tickets/coupons" Jim Henson's Muppet Vision 3D - "D" Monster's, Inc. - "C" (Heck, all the Fantasyland dark rides were either "B" or "C" coupons) The Hollywood Backlot Stage - Once again, an venue, not an attraction! Tower of Terror - "E" GOLDEN STATE Golden Dreams - "C" Bountiful Valley Farm - once again, not an attraction, but an area It's Tough to be a Bug! - "D" Soarin' Over California - "D" Seasons of the Vine - Free show Grizzly River Run - "E" Redwood Creek Challenge Trail - "D" (Matches the old Tom Sawyer Island rating) Mission Tortilla Factory - Free exhibit The Boudin Bakery - Free exhibit OK, so let's look at what we have in different coupons.... DISNEYLAND "A" - 10 "B" - 7 "C" - 11 "D" - 9 "E" - 9 Total amount of attraction that would have had coupons - 46 DISNEY'S CALIFORNIA ADVENTURE "A" - 2 "B" - 3 "C" - 5 "D" - 5 "E" - 3 Total amount of attractions that would have had coupons - 17 or 18 OK, so if we used the "old" system, DCA has only 40% of the attractions that DL has, and if you got coupon books and an admission ticket to the parks, than the majority of the time you would spend at DL (Which matches the current attendance trends, with DL getting about 3/4th of the total resort attendance per day)... So let's take these numbers and compare it to the current system.. 40% of $56 is $22... and right now the cost of a discounted DCA ticket is $20 (per the add on for a one-day ParkHopper)($15 for SoCal's).
407	RoadTrip Thu 10/27/2005 9:14a	<<While you may personally think these are "impressive," the public in general has voted with their feet. In particular Muppets, TTBAB, Animation, and to an extent even ToT have failed to draw much of a crowd.>> In California. At WDW they are major draws. <<OK, so if we used the "old" system, DCA has only 40% of the attractions that DL has, and if you got coupon books and an admission ticket to the parks, than the majority of the time you would spend at DL (Which matches the current attendance trends, with DL getting about 3/4th of the total resort attendance per day)... So let's take these numbers and compare it to the current system.. 40% of $56 is $22... and right now the cost of a discounted DCA ticket is $20 (per the add on for a one-day ParkHopper)($15 for SoCal's).>> Great analysis! I always knew DCA was a great value!! :-) I've also always said that Disney made a major mistake in their initial pricing. They should have learned in Florida that the only way you can sell tickets to the secondary parks is through the use of 'hoppers'.
408	jaycub Thu 10/27/2005 9:39p	Excellent analysis darkbeer. The funny thing about this is that those of you who seem to hate DCA with so much vigor still keep attending. <<But spending more than a half-day at DCA is a waste of time. And just walking around is rather boring and exhausting. The Grizzly Peak area is pretty, as are the lights at night in the Pier. But that's about it. The rest is fairly empty, sparse, and bland.>> Y'see idleHands, this is a difference of opinion. I agree that there isn't anywhere near as much to do in DCA as there is in DL, which is why the general public tends to gravitate towards DL. I also think that Road Trip is absolutely correct in that people go to the other 3 parks in WDW because they're there for a week or so, whereas DL visitors on average will only be there for a couple of days. I live in Utah, and I love Disneyland, but when I go, I am just as excited to spend a little time each day in DCA. I don't get bored there, but rather I find the design of the park to be appealing. I agree, WorldDisney, that we LP posters are a minority to the park goers, and add very little to the final bottom line. That doesn't change my opinion as too why the park isn't as well received though. All of us have friends (at least I hope all of us do) that are not as big of Disney fans. These friends will plan a vacation and will ask us for advice. We can't help but voice our opinions. I don't particularly care for Star Tours, and when I help some friends plan their trip, I generally don't even account for the attraction. I recently had a friend who took his family to Disneyland for the first time in years (since before INDY.) He asked if there was anything worth going into DCA for, and I provided him a list. When he got back, he told me that his family spent half their time in DCA! If you would rather spend your time elsewhere, great; but sometimes perspective can change out opinions of something. Shawshank Redemption bombed in theatres because general buzz damned it in theatres, not it's one of the most revered movies around. I think both of you make good points; I just happen to be one who disagrees with you. I would rather spend a couple days in DCA than in EPCOT, I'm sure that you would disagree with me there. Who's to say that I'm wrong for that?
409	WorldDisney Thu 10/27/2005 11:00p	<<While you may personally think these are "impressive,?the public in general has voted with their feet. In particular Muppets, TTBAB, Animation, and to an extent even ToT have failed to draw much of a crowd.>> <<In California. At WDW they are major draws.>> That's because they are in parks a lot of people like ;).
410	idleHands Fri 10/28/2005 7:26a	"That's because they are in parks a lot of people like ;)." Which brings us back to the issue of proximity and easy access to "better" attractions. Muppets, Animation, and Tower are located in MGM, Tough/Bug is in DAK. Both parks are "lighter" in attraction offerings compared to MK and Epcot. And all four parks are separated from each other by a far greater divide than the Plaza that separates DL and DCA. So... if you've taken the time and energy to get on that bus or water taxi, or in your car, and travel to either park (especially DAK), you will be more "compelled" to do and see as much as you can, while you're there. Therefore, attractions that might not have as big of a draw in another park that's easier to get to, with greater competition from other attractions nearby, will fair much better. And I believe this is why those four attractions are a "bigger draw" at WDW than in Anaheim. They don't have to compete with attractions in another world-class theme park, just a short walk away.

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