Tokyo Disneyland
Topic: 3/8/06 Pardon Our Dust - Tokyo Disneyland Resor

#	Author	Message
41	WorldDisney Fri 3/10/2006 12:04p	Okay Dave, I'll bite :). <<OK, I'll chime in defence as well. this article is pretty balanced, but you guys are bringing baggage to the discussion. It is true that you guys do not often agree. But there are some truths here as I see them: TDS was expected to be a hit, and in comparison to DCA and WDSP, it is, out of the park.>> True, but it's something that you will rarely hear Leemac say or admit, even though its glaringly obvious. <<However, compared to forecasts (which are critical for management and fiscal governance), it is not a good piece of business, I am sad to say. WDSP and DCA may not have the larger visitor numbers, but the expenses are far lower on capital, debt repayment and operational costs than TDS. Therefore, TDS is a problem. Just a different kind of problem than DCA and WDSP poses.>> I agree 100%. I have NEVER denied that TDS doesn't have problems. The problem is the way YOU write and the way Leemac writes it is that EVERYTHING TDS and TDR in general are problems. Its not so much the fact that the company is struggling, in Leemac's eyes, the company can't do ANYTHING right and its bizarre when just up to a year or so ago, TDR brought in the most guests in the entire world, period. Its the most maintained, well kept, cleaned, produced the most shows, created some of the best CM behavior IMO and created new attractions regularly, but all he does is COMPLAIN about these issues and people scratch their heads. People should be celebrating the fact that a park is really adhereing to what Walt Disney inspired, but none of it is never good enough for him.....which is fine, but be FAIR about it. This is what he managed to complains about concerning TDR: the parks, the guests, the hotels, Ikspari, the choice of attractions, the mechandise, the food, the shows, the location of the resort, the New Year's Eve bash, the ride queues, the size of the monorail with quotes such as "TDS is too 'real' for him", the "Ambassador hotel is put in a bad location", "Not enough exclusive merchandise","There are too many cloned rides at TDL" and the list goes on and on and on. It's ENDLESS!!! Hell, he actually commented how he didn't like the theme song once. I'm litterally laughing as I type this :). This man has litterally managed to hate EVERY facet of this resort. It's just amazing how much he hates almost everything that has come out of that place (Yes, I think DCA sucks, but I don't exactly think DL, the hotels, DTD, the CM's, all the food, the costumes and on and on and on are going to hell in a handbasket the same way he thinks TDR is....by comparison, I'm quite tame :)). ON THE OTHER HAND, the other FOUR resorts that are owned by Disney, they get nowhere CLOSE to the type of criticism and up close analysis he manages to give OLC and rarely criticizes them, if at all. Why is that???? This one little resort gets all that abuse and the others pretty much pass with flying colors. How does that happen? Even when all that is said, they are his opinions, fine. But, what REALLY eats at me is when he takes the EXACT same issues for OLC and uses it as a 'problem' for that park, but its not an issue for the others, which is where the hypocricy comes in. The one that stands out at the moment (and yes, there are quite a few ;)) is when he constantly complains about TDS not having enough attractions and fine, I COMPLETELY with him. Sure, the park needs more rides. IMO, its enough for NOW, but it definitely needs more in the future. But, it opened with enough IMO when you count all the shows they have there. Now, keep that in your head, he complains about the lack of rides in TDS. But then, we alll complain about the lack of rides in HKDL (and complainly LOUDLY LOL), but what's his response? He doesn't mind it being so few rides because its not "really about the rides for him." Huh??? TDS: can't stop complaining how it needed 'more'. HKDL: completely acceptable (and I know he's reading this, so yes, I would say that he DID say the park SHOULD'VE opened with more attractions), but he doesn't complain about it and pretty much defends the company for having basically 5 worthy attractions in the entire place. And REMEMBER, TDS almost have TWICE the number of total attractions as HKDL. TDS has 29. HKDL has about 17. Yeah, it says 22, but when you take out the castle, tiki torches, freakin tarzan rafts,the Disney Story quick fix and yes, City Hall *sigh*, that leaves 17. And IMO, maybe only about 7 of those attractions are on par with anything that is inside of TDS, but that's just an opinion :). I mean, does he think we're stupid??? Does he think we forget what he said in one section versus another? And that's just one direct example. It just gets ANNOYING!!!!! It's wrong and yes, it makes him looked biased no matter how much sematics and split hair arguments he tries to make. All the problems he has with the TDR are ALL in the Disney owned resorts (and usually worse), but he just pushes those aside. THAT'S what bothers us so much. My motto is: What is good for one park is good for another. What is bad for one park is bad for another, period. If I think its a bad idea for DCA to have a woody coaster in it, then I think its bad that TDS has a woody in it or AK and etc. That's how I make my arguments. Apparently, not Leemac way of seeing things. <<WD - dude. I enjoy our debates and man, I'd love to share some time with you as I am sure we'd have a blast, but your posts are very lengthily and quite scathing of Lee at times. On the flip side, I don't always see eye to eye with Lee either.>> LOL, they are lenghthy aren't they (as this one shows ;)). I just don't know how to edit and I honestly think its a Black or African-American thing. Seriously, we're taught never to back down from an argument and stand up for ourselves all the time, so that usually reorts to a lot of incoherant rambling ;D. I admit, I AM hard on Leemac sometimes and I try not to be. Sometimes I read over what I said in past threads and go, "Wow, I was really mean there." I know I was quite harsh here to ALTHOUGH if you read my first post here, #5, I didn't say ANYTHING about his inaccurate reporting. I just commented on the parts I agreed with and gave my POV. Its not until later when others said something I spoke up. I was trying to hold it in, but in the end I couldn't. Look, I LIKE Leemac, I do. I met the guy back in July at the LP meet and he was a really nice guy. Very nice in fact. We only talked for 5 minutes (although the conversation was really about how he thought OLC was padding the attendance figures. LMAO, he can never let go.) Anyway, I guess it just bothers me to see someone purposely contradicting himself on so many points, it gets to me. I know ALOT of people hate me in the DCA boards because I speak my mind. I know I'm not EVIL or anything and neither is Leemac, but its those above examples that get to me over and over again. I can't sit back and watch him say with a straight face, "I think HKDL is a stunning park." when others have been there and know the truth. Yes, its all opinion of course, but Leemac just sounds like a corporate mouthpiece for the mouse sometimes and ESPECIALLY when HKDL started going. More than ever now. I tell myself they ARE his opinions, but when you are constantly shucking and jiving trying to convince people something is truly great while the majority disagrees with you....and your pocketbook relies on that opinion, I'm sorry, I'm calling it like I see it. Yep, another long one :). Dave I hope to meet you too one day. Yep, me and you also disagree on a lot here too, but I don't think I ever called you biased or a hypocrite on YOUR opinions once....and there's a reason for that ;D.
42	RandySavage Fri 3/10/2006 12:14p	I just read the most recent OLC annual report: http://olc.netir-wsp.com/media s/1656486483_OLCAR2005final.pdf While the Company experienced declines in 2005 in income, revenue, etc., they attribute it to record heat, drop-off after the anniversary year, etc. The numbers for the themeparks division are lumped together, so it difficult to tell if DisneySea is as big a drain on the Company as Lee reported. Lee, could you please provide links to official documentation that will show that DisneySea has been a fiscal disappointment. I am very curious as to what the numbers (attendance, revenues, profit margin, etc) were for DisneySea - both the pre-opening projections, as well as actual numbers. Many Thanks.
43	TomSawyer Fri 3/10/2006 1:16p	That report is interesting. I had no idea that almost 70% of their park guests were from the Tokyo area.
44	disneywatcher Fri 3/10/2006 1:54p	>> Lee has always hated DisneySea and stated so HERE ON LAUGHINGPLACE as of the grand opening << What's far more telling to me is that he's had a soft spot in his heart for DCA since it opened in 2001 (if not before then). In fact, his type of opinion or thinking (or eyesight) is one of the biggest reasons I started to realize what likely was at the core of the DisCo becoming so botched up. In other words, there are people out there who can't even pass the simple test of knowing when something is truly good or truly bad, or who transpose quality with junk, and then make decisions accordingly. For example, Michael Eisner saying something along the lines of, "I love factory tours and Coney Island and would love to see such things in a Disney park!!"
45	davewasbaloo Fri 3/10/2006 3:35p	"LOL, they are lenghthy aren't they (as this one shows ;)). I just don't know how to edit and I honestly think its a Black or African-American thing. Seriously, we're taught never to back down from an argument and stand up for ourselves all the time, so that usually reorts to a lot of incoherant rambling ;D." Funny - I would have never thought it was ethnicity or heritage. To me it just seems like passion ;-D "Yep, another long one :). Dave I hope to meet you too one day. Yep, me and you also disagree on a lot here too, but I don't think I ever called you biased or a hypocrite on YOUR opinions once....and there's a reason for that ;D." But we also agree on a lot too. TDS, DCA, WDSP, and HKDL need more attractions (and not necessarily in that order, probably the other way around).
46	Judy from Boise Fri 3/10/2006 4:47p	I wasn't going to post until i read #44 ! I guess i have a 'soft spot" for DCA too, and gee I have always thought I have excellent taste! My favorite management phrase is "you can only steer a moving ship". In that vein DCA is 100% better than a parking lot. Could it have been better ....of course. But I would rather have a second gate that will be improved over time, than a perfectly planned Wescot, that never gets funded/built! I think it is a little presumptuous to imply anyone who likes DCA is stupid or tasteless. On a last note, I am sad to hear that "Sinbad" never developed the following it deserved. It was one of my favorite attractions of my TDS visit.
47	SuperDry Sat 3/11/2006 1:29p	I've re-read the article, and still don't quite understand what everyone is so bent out of shape over (again, specifically talking about the article). Of course, us here on LP, having had lots of discussions with the author, know his point of view and where he's coming from to some extent. I definately saw that in the article. But I didn't think it was one-sided or heavily slanted toward the author's point of view. In fact, when I first read it, and once again just now, I noted how even-handed it seemed to be. What follows is just my reading of the situation (that is, my opinion): When I read the article, as when I read stuff leemac writes in Tales, it definately has a more neutral, dare I say journalistic, tone to it than what he writes here. And that's totally understandable if not to be expected. A general-circulation publication should be as neutral as possible, even if the publishers and authors have a particular bias. If the same people also post on an Internet discussion board, it's perfectly natural that their writing there would be much more heavily slanted toward their own personal opinions and biases - isn't that the whole point of a discussion board? As frustrated, confused, and disagreeing I am from time to time with what leemac writes here, I really don't see what the problem is with the article linked to in #1. Just my opinion.
48	Westsider Sun 3/12/2006 8:05p	leemac, in your upcoming article on DCA will you be describing DCA as a "barnacle" on the side of Disneyland too? 2005 Attendance Tokyo Disneyland - 13 Million Tokyo DisneySea - 12 Million Disneyland - 14.5 Million DCA - 5.8 Million If you don't use the "barnacle" title again for DCA, what will you use? I'm afraid Al Lutz already has the term "Heroin Monkey" trademarked unfortunately. ;-)
49	tcsnwhite Tue 3/14/2006 6:57p	Thank you Lee for writing a good article. I enjoyed reading it. All the fuss on the boards here about your bias and point of view is quite frankly annoying in itself. After reading the piece, I hardly got a sense of bias against the OLC or TDR. You stated what you know and believe, and it made sense. You are the not first person I know to actual point out the shortcomings and problems that currently face the OLC. And the fact that you have said what you did is good. I have silently been reading plenty of the threads here on the LP boards for quite some time, and you have always supplied good information. I have never gotten a sense of you outright hating everything about TDR or the OLC. The truth is that there are plenty of people here on these boards who seem to be part of a TDR love-fest, who hardly see anything wrong with what the OLC does with it's resort. and when any of us seem to disagree with their opinions, well, we get blasted. and they seem to have some sort of agenda with you stating your opinion, which doesn't always line up with theirs. It is your opinion, and they need to let it go. no opinion is fact. That is why I have not commented here often, and after this post will not. I have better things to do with my time than squabble over this stuff here. But overall, I just finally felt like I had to say what I have felt. I don't hold any grudges over anyone here, hey, I don't know anyone here. but the squabbles that go on get annoying. and the ganging up on you, whether you work for the TWDC or not, is just getting out of hand. keep bringing your comments and your perspective- I enjoy it.
50	WorldDisney Wed 3/15/2006 3:07a	^^^You're Leemac's cousin, aren't you ;D. Listen, I understand your point and I agree, we DO gang up on Leemac sometimes and I really do feel about that, I do. I've said it before. Its not something I purposely try to do here....but it happens lol. But, I completely stand 100% by my last post. Leemac is NOT the only one that has an issue with TDR and he has the right to express that. But, the issue for many of us (and yes, its more of a history thing I suppose) is his continual hypocricey to constantly tear down this resort while conviently ignoring the issues of all the others and trying to paint an over rosey picture of them and the company. Its just annoying beyound anything. The reason why he is 'ganged up' is because of these reasons and he KNOWS it ;). HKDL is the latest and perfect example of that and I'm NOT backing down on my opinion of that. (Happy Birthday Disneyland ;D)

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