DCA, Future Expansion
Topic: Tom Staggs basically confirms the massive upgrade

#	Author	Message
121	jonvn Tue 9/25/2007 2:27p	"But why was that ever a problem? " Because people like them and why not? They are there to entertain. People are entertained by these things, and it was an aspect of amusement parks they were missing. "Disney made a name for themselves by doing things better than the competition" Which they did with the pier area for these rides. All these rides are themed to a surrounding area. No one else does that with these things. Even IOA, with its billions put up its Hulk coaster, and aside from a few items in the line, the theming is pretty much that the coaster is painted green. "almost all of their rides had a "theme" attached to them, but I would never call this place a theme park!" This is one of the things I've been talking about. That by putting in rides that on their own may have a theme or even be good, if it doesn't match the surroundings, it makes the whole thing six flags like. The rides in the pier are not just individually themed. I've seen this in many parks too. That's the most common thing, I think. Just paint it blue and red and call it Superman. There's your theme. But things like the Maliboomer and the coaster, and the large orange...they are all themed to california and to seaside piers. Now, in Route 66 which everyone says sucks, well, what have you got there? A mouse coaster with really no theming that I recall, and the Golden Zephyr which also really doesn't have much theming. Couple of other things, too, I guess. I say that it is the lack of connection of the rides in the area to the supposed theming they are in which totally destroyed any cohesive understanding of what the area was supposed to be. In that area, it is a problem. But to say that they have no theming? That's not true. You have to be able to pull back from the all or nothing idea, and see things a little more evenly.
122	plpeters70 Tue 9/25/2007 5:42p	"Because people like them and why not? They are there to entertain." But jon, what do these rides really add to the overall Disney vacation that your common visitor couldn't get elsewhere. Things like Pirates and Soarin - those are unique experiences that are difficult to duplicate elsewhere. But the Pier rides - I think not. And really, if the whole goal of DCA was to pull in people to stay longer at Disneyland, then how are rides like this really going to help. I very much doubt that they are a draw for people from the Midwest. Sure, there's more to DCA than just the Pier, but I argue that the Pier is really doing nothing to really add to the vacation experience. And it's probably not doing anything to help DCA's image either. "Now, in Route 66 which everyone says sucks" I tend to forget that Route 66 is supposed to be a different area - it blends right into the Pier theming and I tend to think of all the rides around that side of the lagoon as part of the Pier, even if it's not technically supposed to be that way.
123	jmuboy Tue 9/25/2007 5:59p	I tend to close my eyes and pretend the Route 66 area isn't even there. If PP is a salute to seaside parks, then Route 66 is a salute to Magic Mountain and Great America.
124	dshyates Tue 9/25/2007 8:11p	Jon we are not idiots, we do comprehend the theme of the pier. Screamin' is supposed to look like a "woodie", Maliboomer is the Hammer/Bell game. Mulholland is, well, it is a mad mouse coaster themed to mad mouse coaster that is supposed to remind you of a fun lovin' carefree madcapped drive down Mulholland drive. We understand Macrothemeing. The pier is macrothemed area. Where they used the overall theme of an pier type amusement park to NOT have to heavily theme the stock amusement park rides they filled it with. They are way less themed than anything at IOA, including the Hulk, and IOA in general is less concerned about theme than Disney. But some of that has to do with they actually WANT people to see the superstructure of their coasters. They placed the Hulk right in the front of the park so you can see it from the interstate. They are trying to appeal to a group that likes more extreme experiences. And fortunately for them Walt's rules about exposed track stop at the berm. But none the less has a more intricate theme and story than anything in the pier. Heck, Dollywood's new Mystry Mine is more Disney than anything in DCA.
125	dshyates Tue 9/25/2007 8:16p	http://www.screamscape.com/htm l/dollywood.htm
126	Darkbeer Tue 9/25/2007 8:50p	What about the Sun Wheel, basically a Coney Island copycat, unthemed (unless you count the funky Sun in the middle) and has NOTHING to do with California Seaside parks.... The queue area is almost as bad as the Golden Zepher, and as bad (if not worst) as the Malibommoer queue.
127	2001DLFan Tue 9/25/2007 10:36p	<<jonvn: "Are you denying that Pressler " Did I say he didn't make those changes? In fact, I pointed out changes that were made at the same time when it was claimed that nothing was cut back at Disneyland at the time things were cut back in DCA. "in order to provide Eisner the increased revenue he demanded? Beyond all that making sense, it happened." Of course it makes sense. Please, think beyond the barest superficialities. Why would he need to generate the revenues Eisner demanded? (actually, you don't generate revenue by cutting costs) Because he wasn't getting the money he normally would, if he had enough paying customers. So, not enough paying customers, you cut back. This is how businesses work.>> During the Eisner/Wells heyday, the company grew enormously, constantly in the double digits and often in the 20% range. During that time, Eisner promised stockholders that he would continue that 20% annual increase. In the mid 90's though, the economy began to slip. But, Eisner, in his effort to maintain that promise, still demanded that the parks provide that 20%. As the economy downturn began to hit the parks in many ways, Pressler started taking steps that provided the return Eisner wanted. Unfortunately, he provided it by cutting budgets across the board. Maintenance was reduced, attractions closed, hours reduced and other cost cutting measures that seriously damaged the quality and integrity of the park. So, while Pressler was able to make his points with Eisner, the park itself fell into serious disrepair. It wasn't until the park's upcoming 50th birthday and installation of Ouimat that the park started to recover. A wise move during the economic down turn would have been for Eisner to apologize to stockholders and tell them that, due to the economic downturn, he wouldn't be able to maintain the 20% annual return. If he had indicated that the company would be using that time to plan for improvements that would improve the parks and make them ready for when the economy recovered and people were ready to happily spend their money again. When the economy is slow, it's the time to show confidence in the future and help spur economic recovery, NOT keep unreasonable promises that weakens your product.
128	Sport Goofy Wed 9/26/2007 9:44a	<< A wise move during the economic down turn would have been for Eisner to apologize to stockholders and tell them that, due to the economic downturn, he wouldn't be able to maintain the 20% annual return. >> This analysis is so simplistic that is almost laughable. It assumes that Disney operates in a vacuum and can simply conduct business as it pleases. Aside from economic downturns, Disney also faced the serious threat of being bought out by a "dot com" during mid to late 90s. Because Disney was not an internet darling, its stock price began to languish along with every other "old" media company. To suggest that Disney management should have thrown in the towel on growth goals is to suggest that you would have preferred for Disney to be bought out by AOL, Yahoo!, or any of the other dot com bubble stocks that were looking to buy media companies throughout the late 90s. You only have to look at the wreckage of the AOL-Time Warner buyout to see what could have happened to Disney. There are still a great many Wall Street takeover artists that would love to see a buyout of Disney so they can get their hands on the company's cash flow. If Disney is incapable of growing, it becomes very vulnerable to the sharks on Wall Street that could care less about any of the concerns discussed on these boards.
129	jonvn Wed 9/26/2007 11:25a	"But jon, what do these rides really add to the overall Disney vacation that your common visitor couldn't get elsewhere." They add the ability to go on these sorts of rides while at a Disney park, whereas before you could not. Some people dislike these sorts of things (like me) and some like them. I really intensely dislike the types of rides on Paradise Pier. I don't understand the attraction to them (nor of TOT, for that matter). But for those people who say this element is missing, it no longer is. It adds variety. It adds different types of things that you can do there. It adds a reason for people to go to Disney and enjoy the sorts of things they like to do in a Disney environment, as opposed to a Six Flags environment. "I very much doubt that they are a draw for people from the Midwest. " Not as individual rides, no. I don't think too many individual rides are that big of a draw. We have to think beyond individual attractions, and move back to the concept of the overall entertainment offering that the entire resort provides. The Maliboomer is not going to cause someone to come out to Disneyland. But the collection of these rides is going to possibly make someone say "Hey, they have these things too?" And in the rumors of what is going on, we are told that the pier area is going to be EXPANDED. What does that tell you? It tells me that this is a very popular area and that they are going to be making it bigger because of it. That's my guess. "I tend to forget that Route 66 is supposed to be a different area " Me too. They really didn't do a great job there, did they. "They are way less themed than anything at IOA" I guess the theming of the coaster is so well done, it's not even seen. All of those fake wood supports are fake. That's all theming. That is a very large amount of theming, actually. The ride does not need them. It is a steel coaster. The Maliboomer did not need to be dressed as anything at all. It's themed as well. SO when you say they are not themed, and they are, that's just not right. "But some of that has to do with they actually WANT people to see the superstructure of their coasters" OK, so, Disney wanted theirs to be themed to look like the sort of thing representative of a pier. So they covered it up. With theming, which is really just decor, mostly. "has NOTHING to do with California Seaside parks...." It's a ferris wheel, the sun theme is themed in conjunction with the coaster, if you actually bothered to look. Are you trying to suggest that only rides that actually could be found on california piers be used? That's a ridiculous idea. "During the Eisner/Wells heyday," Thanks for the purported history lesson. This does not dispute anything I had to say. If the place was pulling in sufficient numbers of customers cutbacks would not have been needed. Nice fable, otherwise. Although I think a fable specifically has to use animals in place of humans. Make Eisner a pig. I think that'd work. And Pressler could be a donkey and Wells could be an owl. "A wise move during the economic down turn would have been for Eisner to apologize" A wise move would have involved making sure the company was not bought out in a hostile takeover.
130	plpeters70 Wed 9/26/2007 12:24p	"It adds variety. It adds different types of things that you can do there. It adds a reason for people to go to Disney and enjoy the sorts of things they like to do in a Disney environment, as opposed to a Six Flags environment." This is true, but is this really the type of variety that Disneyland Resort needs? If this was Walt Disney World, where they have so much space, then I would have a less difficult time understanding the decision to add these types of rides to a Disney Theme Park. But at Disneyland space is at a premium, and they should be filling that space with things that are sure to be a unique draw in their own right. "And in the rumors of what is going on, we are told that the pier area is going to be EXPANDED. What does that tell you? It tells me that this is a very popular area and that they are going to be making it bigger because of it." Well, that's only partly true - isn't it. While they may be increasing the size of the Paradise Pier area, it doesn't sound like they are adding any more of these carnival-style rides. Instead, they are getting rid of some of them and adding in more traditional style Disney attractions. (Not that I agree with their plans to add cartoon character rides - I'd rather see something more original.) But the point stands - while Disney might feel that PP is a good theme, they obviously don't think that adding more carnival rides is a good idea.

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