World Events
Topic: A pregnant man

#	Author	Message
151	RC Collins Mon 4/14/2008 5:02p	Mr X >>Why the big difference?<< You don't see a difference between... feeling attracted to the same sex/interacting with the same sex and feeling like a different gender/dressing like the other gender and even mutilating your body to appear to be the other gender? I'm not saying to be mean to these people. I simply ask that they not expect me to go along with their "make-believe". A homosexual man does not insist I go along with his game. If he hits on me (a rare occurrence) and I turn him down, he doesn't file a lawsuit against me or insist that I *must* date him. Yet someone who is "transgender" insists I call him a woman? Not going to happen, unless he appears to be a woman and doesn't tell me otherwise. In this case, the woman went public as "a pregnant man".
152	RC Collins Mon 4/14/2008 5:03p	ShivaThDestroyer: >>RC, I have to disagree with you on both of those points. I do not believe it is "wrong and harmful" for a child to be brought into this world without a father.<< I was a little more precise than that. I said *intentionally conceiving* the child with the intention of depriving that child of a father. >>There have been countless children brought into this world where the father was not a positive influence and in many cases much more harmful than if the child did not have a father.<< It is also wrong to conceive a child with a man who one knows will be a harmful father. >>> And she hurt herself with the surgeries and hormones.< I'm sorry, that's not our call to make.<< Oh, she's free to do it. I wouldn't bother to use force to try to stop her. But we can have opinions on this in general.
153	RC Collins Mon 4/14/2008 5:03p	Liberty Belle: >>It's really not a choice. What person would CHOOSE to change their sex if they didn't really feel like they HAD to?<< Someone whose therapist thinks that is easier than dealing with whatever the real problem is? Mr X: >>What if, through gene manipulation and maybe cloning techniques or whatever, they really could change someones' sex to the point where it would be impossible to tell who was transsexual and who was "born that way". Would you then be okay with it?<< The methods you cite sound like changing a human being's sex when they are in the embryonic stage. I don't see what the point would be. Generally, I'm against serious experiments or unnecessary medical procedures performed on someone without their consent. I can't pretend to know how these people feel inside. Our feelings are our own. But when I hear of someone removing perfectly healthy and functioning body parts in an effort to pretend to be the opposite sex, I think a line has been crossed.
154	imadisneygal Mon 4/14/2008 5:25p	"But when I hear of someone removing perfectly healthy and functioning body parts in an effort to pretend to be the opposite sex, I think a line has been crossed." Psychologists and psychiatrists disagree. Transgendered people have a medical disorder. They're nor pretending to be the opposite sex, their sex and their gender do not align. Sex therapists do not just "go along for the ride" instead of dealing with the real issues. This is the real issue. Gender Identity Disorder and Gender Dysphoria are real. The syndrome starts in childhood around age 3 or so when gender identity is formed. In very rare cases, the gender does not align with the chromosomes. It happens. It's real. They're not just removing body parts in order to pretend to be someone else. Some transgendered people never have any surgery related to changing their sex. But if you knew some people who are transgendered and talked to them about their experiences before and after their transitions you might see things differently. I'm going to repost the website I posted earlier in this thread because I think it's a fantastic resource. It's http://www.imatyfa.org I met the director of this organization and her son, who was born female, and I can tell you that the transition to being an affirmed male changed Shawn's life as well as his family's life for the better. The suicide rate among transgendered youth is very high and much is still misunderstood about the disorder - mostly because it's so rare. It's not just a feeling. It's who they are. I think the man who came out and announced that he's the first pregnant man does a huge disservice to all of the people who are suffering needlessly because of all of the misunderstanding that exists about gender identity disorder. It sort of makes a mockery of the whole thing. He should have kept it to himself. P.S. There are people you deal with in your life (maybe not on a personal level, but maybe a professional level) who are transgendered. I met several affirmed males (born female) and unless you saw these people naked before their surgeries you'd never, EVER know it. The transition from male to female is harder to hide because the estrogen does not change the voice or the adam's apple, but the facial and adam's apple surgeries are getting so good that it's even hard to tell if some affirmed females were born male or femals. Believe it.
155	imadisneygal Mon 4/14/2008 5:25p	nor = not. We have a preview button and I didn't even use it!! ARGH!!
156	Mr X Mon 4/14/2008 6:38p	***You don't see a difference between... feeling attracted to the same sex/interacting with the same sex and feeling like a different gender/dressing like the other gender and even mutilating your body to appear to be the other gender?*** Again with the hate speech (mutilation, etc...), when you didn't even answer my previous questions about it. See, I don't see a big difference in the levels of prejudice and hatred was my point. Of course the experience of such people is different. I don't see either one as particularly better or worse, just different.
157	Mr X Mon 4/14/2008 6:39p	**The methods you cite sound like changing a human being's sex when they are in the embryonic stage.** No. You missed the point entirely.
158	Mr X Mon 4/14/2008 6:43p	**I'm not saying to be mean to these people. I simply ask that they not expect me to go along with their "make-believe". A homosexual man does not insist I go along with his game. If he hits on me (a rare occurrence) and I turn him down, he doesn't file a lawsuit against me or insist that I *must* date him. Yet someone who is "transgender" insists I call him a woman? Not going to happen** Okay, so if you ever lose your, I'll just say "important parts" in an accident, I'll feel free to call you a girl. I mean, without the proper parts you couldn't expect me to "pretend" and call you something your not right? Not going to happen, lady. As far as your anger or hate or whatever it is in insisting that you protest this whole sordid thing by "refusing" to call them by their chosen gender, I wonder why it's such an issue for you. Even the courts accommodate people of trans gendered experience. I don't really see why, unless you were being purposefully hateful, you'd have a problem calling someone who has an "F" on their birth certificate a female.
159	ShivaThDestroyer Mon 4/14/2008 6:47p	RC Collins, please just call me Shiva. We're all friends here. >>I was a little more precise than that. I said *intentionally conceiving* the child with the intention of depriving that child of a father.<< >>t is also wrong to conceive a child with a man who one knows will be a harmful father.<< >>But we can have opinions on this in general.<< I'm certainly not in a position to say who's opinions are the most valid, but the first two above referenced arguments are also opinion, not fact. I also have a niece that might be a poster child for imadisneygal's latest post. She is currently contemplating surgery. I have no way of knowing if this will resolve the conflicts in her life but as someone who loves her I will do whatever I can to support her and try to make life a little easier for her. If that means at some point I start referring to her as *him* and as my nephew, that's the least I can do. I would also extend that same courtesy to any transgendered person as I don't feel they are pretending to be the opposite sex, in their minds they might very well feel that they are correcting a "mistake". If someone has had enough pain in their lives that they feel radical surgery is their only option, I don't feel the need to add to it.
160	Mr X Mon 4/14/2008 6:48p	***Someone whose therapist thinks that is easier than dealing with whatever the real problem is?*** Spoken as someone who apparently has no idea how long and drawn out the process is. I'm no therapist, but I can easily imagine this is one of the more challenging situations that could come up. Often depressed and suicidal, confused and dealing with an extremely hostile world (See RC for details on THAT), and those that do go through the process of hormones and/or surgury and all that need YEARS of therapy before it's even allowed. No, I wouldn't think any shrink in their right mind would just "go along" with this as some sort of easy way out. No freakin way.

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