World Events
Topic: A pregnant man

#	Author	Message
201	RC Collins Thu 5/1/2008 12:53p	mele: >>I was referring to the Golden Rule when I talked about being judgmental. You know that Bible that you think so highly of? I think there's a few comments in there about judging other people...<< There sure are. And they are very, very often misused in an effort to try to get people to shut up about stuff that is either clearly taught by the Bible as wrong, or common sense should already tell us is wrong. But if we go by your apparent use of them, you can't judge me as wrong to express my views here - so you are violating your own point. >>These people legally can have children, just like you and your wife so there's no point in discussing the legal side.<< I was talking nature. They are not bringing children into the world as a result of an unplanned pregnancy or as a natural result of their lovemaking. They have to use at least one third party and make the conscious decision to go ahead and put in the effort to do this. And yes, there are male/female couples that have trouble conceiving, but not because of their natural gender. >>You said they were bringing a child into a bad home.<< I don't think I used those words. I said they are, by design, depriving the child of a father, and all other things being equal, that is not good. >>If you are going to hold others up to you "moral" standard, then be prepared to live up to theirs.<< I'm simply expressing an opinion. I have no problem with anyone else expressing theirs, too. >>As to "making a mockery" of mascuilinity/femininity, GMAFB...any strip club makes a mockery of that.<< How does that negate what I've said? I've never darkened the door of a strip club. When I'm hungry, I don't go pay to look at a plate of food being slowly unveiled and shaken around. You're right - a good argument could be made for such businesses making a mockery of masculinity and femininity.
202	RC Collins Thu 5/1/2008 12:54p	Dabob2: >>What did you mean by "game," then?<< By "game" I meant that the gay man who hits on me does not require me to accept his proposal. That would be rape. He is not insisting I call him something I don't believe he is. A man who insists I call him a woman is asking me to do something that I disagree with. There is a distinct difference between a man saying "I am gay. I have tickets for "Wicked" - would you like to join me for a date?" and a man saying "I'm a woman. Refer to me as a woman." >>Of course they conceived intentionally. But the intention was not to deprive anyone of a father.<< But they knew that was an unavoidable consequence of their actions. >>A straight couple where the father, say, is in a wheelchair don't "intentionally" bring a child into the world where they know the dad will never be able to play catch, play football, etc. with his son.<< A father is a wheelchair is a far different matter than no father at all. I get it - they don't really think it is important for a child to have a father. I get that. I just don't agree. Yes, it happens because a father gets killed or a woman made a bad choice in who she let knock her up, or a woman chooses to carry a baby who was conceived by rape to term. But in this case, we're talking *by design* (and I'm not excusing women who choose to get knocked up by unreliable men, or the men, or women who choose to use a sperm bank and raise a child alone). They are saying fathers are not important, or at least not as important as fulfilling their desire to have a child... which nature has never granted two women by themselves. I disagree - I believe both mothers and fathers are important to a child.
203	RC Collins Thu 5/1/2008 12:54p	mele >>He is also very vocal about his feelings that Christians are treated with much intolerance in today's society.<< In some cases, Christians are. Thankfully, it isn't like some parts of the world. >>I find that ironic considering his stubbornness and negativity towards others, yet he seems to think his beliefs and lifestyle should be given more respect.<< No more respect than anyone else's. These women are free to do what they have done. I should be free to say it is a bad idea. >>What's more, it is his refusal to respect other lifestyles in the name of Christ that is\precisely WHY Christian views aren't being tolerated as much.<< Perhaps you have a different understanding of tolerance than I do. If you agree with something or are indifferent to it, that is not "tolerating" it. Tolerance comes in when you disagree with something, but you refrain from using force to stop it - you "tolerate" it. >>The Golden Rule trumps everything, IMO. If we ALL practiced it consistantly, this world would be a much happier place.<< Ultimately, I would want others to let me know if I was doing something wrong. That is consistent with the Golden Rule. I do respect the beliefs of other people. I don't disrespect them by patronizing people and pretending that my beliefs do not disagree with theirs. I don't agree with everything everyone believes, and neither do you, because it is impossible to do so. Never here have I told anyone they shouldn't be able to disagree with me or my beliefs. I do believe in being nice to other people. But part of being nice is upholding that which is beneficial. Silently sitting by as our culture continues to degrade masculinity and femininity and motherhood and fatherhood, which is having negative effects on people, is NOT "nice".
204	davewasbaloo Thu 5/1/2008 1:04p	>>>No more respect than anyone else's. These women are free to do what they have done. I should be free to say it is a bad idea.<<< Agreed. the pendulem has swung to far the other way. I am actually happy to stand up and say, I think these women are in the wrong. To me it feels like a form of perversion, and I am uncomfortable about these folks doing this. I don't care if they love each other and are married. That's fine, they were not hurting anybody. But I do not agree with them having children.
205	davewasbaloo Thu 5/1/2008 1:09p	>>>Silently sitting by as our culture continues to degrade masculinity and femininity and motherhood and fatherhood, which is having negative effects on people, is NOT "nice".<<< Again RC Collins, I agree. I think Jon Nadelburg's (jonvn's) blog today has had some very interesting comments on this matter. It is almost like it is a bad thing to raise boys up to be boys. I get it, there has been mysogenism and homophobia for time immemorium, however, it doesn't make the pendulum swinging the other way right either. I am proud to be a man, I love women, and I want my son to grow up the same way. If he said to me "Dad, I'm gay" I would not be happy, but I would love and support him, for I would want him to be happy as long as it is not illegal or harming to anyone. If he said "Dad, I want a sex change", I would explore his reasons and support him through it, and probably cry myself to sleep at night and feel guilty for the rest of my life. But if he had a sex change and then said he was having a baby, I would call him out for making irresponsible choices. And that's what I think this couple has done, they have made irresponsible choices.
206	Dabob2 Thu 5/1/2008 1:48p	Dabob2: >>What did you mean by "game," then?<< <By "game" I meant that the gay man who hits on me does not require me to accept his proposal. That would be rape. He is not insisting I call him something I don't believe he is. A man who insists I call him a woman is asking me to do something that I disagree with.> You apparently disagree that people, even those who have felt since childhood that they are "a boy born with a girl's body" (or vice versa) should change their sex in the first place. But people do. It's not quick and easy and it's nothing anyone does without a great deal of thought. Why be unkind or impolite after the fact? It's not like you're going to get them to change back. All you're doing is making their life just a little more difficult to satisfy some ideology you hold that there is male and there is female and there is no gray area. Well, most sex researchers today agree that there is indeed a gray area for some people, uncomfortable as that seems to make you. <There is a distinct difference between a man saying "I am gay. I have tickets for "Wicked" - would you like to join me for a date?"> Thanks for the stereotype. <and a man saying "I'm a woman. Refer to me as a woman."> Legally she may be a woman. Hormonally also. Psychologically. Every way but genital-wise, and even there it may be ambiguous. But hey, if you want to refuse to call people what they wish to be called because you "disagree" with them, it's a free country. But we're free to say that it says much more about you than the object of your disdain. >>Of course they conceived intentionally. But the intention was not to deprive anyone of a father.<< <But they knew that was an unavoidable consequence of their actions.> That's not what you said. You said it was their intention. >>A straight couple where the father, say, is in a wheelchair don't "intentionally" bring a child into the world where they know the dad will never be able to play catch, play football, etc. with his son.<< A< father is a wheelchair is a far different matter than no father at all. I get it - they don't really think it is important for a child to have a father. I get that. > No. If that's how you see it, you obviously don't get it. You're still coming from the wrong assumptions. <Yes, it happens because a father gets killed or a woman made a bad choice in who she let knock her up, or a woman chooses to carry a baby who was conceived by rape to term. But in this case, we're talking *by design* (and I'm not excusing women who choose to get knocked up by unreliable men, or the men, or women who choose to use a sperm bank and raise a child alone). They are saying fathers are not important, or at least not as important as fulfilling their desire to have a child... which nature has never granted two women by themselves. I disagree - I believe both mothers and fathers are important to a child.> And the mother who divorces the father and takes a job across the country so that the father sees the kids perhaps once a year? It's not that anyone feels fathers are unimportant. It's that they understand that countless women, alone and in couples, have raised wonderful kids. I know some myself. So have fathers alone. And countless mother-and-father pairs have one or both members who are abusive, neglectful, or just plain bad parents. The quality of the parenting is far more important than the gender.
207	davewasbaloo Thu 5/1/2008 1:51p	>>>And the mother who divorces the father and takes a job across the country so that the father sees the kids perhaps once a year? It's not that anyone feels fathers are unimportant. It's that they understand that countless women, alone and in couples, have raised wonderful kids. I know some myself. So have fathers alone. And countless mother-and-father pairs have one or both members who are abusive, neglectful, or just plain bad parents. The quality of the parenting is far more important than the gender.<<< This too is also true. Having been raised by my Mom between the ages of 1 and 13. That's not my irk here. It is the idea of this couple having a baby. To me that seems wrong. Even from the physical development angle (funny how people seemed to ignore my post on that one) let alone all the emotional baggage.
208	Dabob2 Thu 5/1/2008 1:54p	If this couple had kept it quiet I could have accepted the idea that they wanted kids, the older woman could no longer have them, and the woman in the process of becoming a man still could, and wanted biological children... But the fact that they went on Oprah and made a big deal about a pregnant man and all that says to me that in this individual case there's at least a little grandstanding going on besides the desire to have kids (i.e. a desire for their 15 minutes, and/or a book deal or something).
209	davewasbaloo Thu 5/1/2008 2:01p	True, but even if it happened on the quiet, well, I am not cool with this. Someone pumped so full of hormones to make the transition, to then need the opposite is not good for the child's physical development. Also, if the other one was too old to have kids, well the body has a biological clock for a reason (there is 21 years difference between my baby brother and I, and believe me, he does not have the same experience and relationship that I did with my parents). And then add the psychological impact of the poor child, if it lives.
210	plpeters70 Thu 5/1/2008 2:08p	<<Silently sitting by as our culture continues to degrade masculinity and femininity>> I don't know that our society "degrades" masculinity and femininity - what I see happening is just a change in the traditional gender roles. To me, it seems like men and women are beginning to behave a lot more like one another than they did in the past. Perhaps it's because boys and girls aren't as seperated as they once were - they tend to play more together than they did in earlier times. Plus, we no longer have exclusively male roles and female roles in society anymore - women can work and men can stay home and raise the kids if they desire. And I just don't see anything wrong with that. But I do see a lot of fear among some that we are somehow losing something as our society changes. I just don't see the changes as a bad thing, and think we'll end up with a much better culture in the long run.

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