World Events
Topic: Schwarzenegger To Oppose Same Sex Marriage Ban

#	Author	Message
31	woody Tue 4/15/2008 11:29a	>>there are far more cultures where polygamy is accepted than cultures where marriage is simply defined between one man and one woman.<< I don't believe polygamy is accepted although it is practiced. It may be tolerated, but not recommended, and it's far from being more prevalent than regular marriage. I wonder where you get your information. In countries where this happen, it is usually favored by the elite or high middle class. You won't find it practiced among most regular people who probably can't afford it anyways. And in some asian countries, it is an underground activity with wives and families in different cities so they will never meet accidentally.
32	imadisneygal Tue 4/15/2008 11:49a	While I agree that in mainstream societies polygamy is not really recommended, there are plenty of societies in which it is not only recommended but practiced. The numbers I am using are from this report cited below. There are over 1000 societies in the report. The majority of the cultures where polygamy is accepted and practiced are African but there are plenty of others as well. As I said, if you're looking for support that polygamy works and is accepted in many western cultures, then no...that's not in the report. My point is that it's not uncommon, or frowned upon, in many other cultures. The numbers on monogamy vs. polygamy are on pages 4 and 5. Pages 37/38 have the breakdown of regions and areas. I would definitely say that it happens most often in societies where the marriage is for financial/status or agricultural reasons. I'm not saying it translates to our country or our culture but it's out there and for us to think that our way (monogamy) is the only way is pretty ethnocentric. http://eclectic.ss.uci.edu/~dr...tlas.pdf
33	ecdc Tue 4/15/2008 12:16p	Historically, polygamy worldwide has been fairly commonplace. It's difficult to measure because what little documentation we have of ancient cultures is always from the elite classes, not the working classes. But while I agree that polygamy is on the decline today, it's not accurate for anti-gay marriage advocates to call it "traditional marriage." There's nothing traditional about it at all, unless your view of history only incorporates 19th century Victorian America. Over the course of human history, multiple wives, concubines, mistresses, etc., has been the norm. It's similar to saying "traditional religious values." Polytheism has been far, far more prevalent in human history than monotheism. So exactly which "traditional religious values" are people talking about? Again, they're looking back 50 or 100 years, not 500 or 5000 years.
34	planodisney Tue 4/15/2008 2:05p	What about incest? How could we have any laws against a brother and sister who are in love being married? What about minors and adults? Who are we to impose our archaic views on a 14 year old girl and a 45 year old male who honestly love each other? I mean it IS all about love? Right? Any couple should be able to marry if they say they love each other. A mom and a son. A dad and his daughter. An adult and a child. Who are we to say what is moral and what is not, since there is no set standard of morality?
35	imadisneygal Tue 4/15/2008 2:30p	^^^Not universally, but every culture has its own definition of what constitutes incest. Sometimes it's only incest if the person is in your mother's lineage. It differs from society to society. In some western countries it's not illegal if the parties are both adults. This case seems to be more about protecting a minor who reported being threatened and forced to have sex against her will. The laws being cited in removing these kids are protection of minor and statutory rape laws, aren't they?
36	woody Tue 4/15/2008 2:47p	>>I'm not saying it translates to our country or our culture but it's out there and for us to think that our way (monogamy) is the only way is pretty ethnocentric.<< To describe it as "ethnocentric" denies the fact that it isn't common at all. Polygamy exists in some segments of society. So what? You make it sound like there should be tolerance to cultures that are not like our own to this extent. Who cares? Legally, it is a slippery slope from gay marriage to polygamy. I can see how far it is argued and how far it is yet to go. Just look at how incest was brought up. It wasn't by accident. You can't legally stop incest with the same legal arguments for gay marriage.
37	imadisneygal Tue 4/15/2008 3:09p	Like I said, polygamous marriage does not translate to our society as it exists. And as to "who cares?" and "you make it seem like there should be tolerance to cultures that are not like our own to this extent" the answers are I care, and yes, I think that we should recognize that we don't have the only way of doing things. It's sort of telling that someone would say, "who cares?" We should care. It speaks, as I said, to our ethnocentrism when we say "well yeah, some 700-odd other societies on earth do it that way but so what?? I believe it's always been done this way so it's the only way." It is irrelevant that the societies which practice polygamy are remote from our own. It's still ethnocentrism in the world view. My point was simply that just because some people keep saying "marriage has always been defined between one man and one woman" doesn't make it so. Personally I don't see anyone making the leap from "one person is legally allowed to marry any other ONE person of their choice" to "one person may marry as many other people as they want! WOOHOO!!!!!" But it scares people when they hear it repeated. So much so that it drives people to the polls. Frightening.
38	woody Tue 4/15/2008 3:21p	>>We should care.<< Only to the extent where we discourage it. Otherwise, it isn't relevant to the discussion. >>My point was simply that just because some people keep saying "marriage has always been defined between one man and one woman" doesn't make it so.<< Except that most people do see marriage as defined in this way and it is very easy to see it in children who cling to a mother and father and will know where it doesn't exist. >>But it scares people when they hear it repeated. So much so that it drives people to the polls. Frightening.<< An Obama moment. So predictable.
39	ecdc Tue 4/15/2008 5:56p	It just cracks me up that, with the economy tanking, the war going badly, and Republicans divided over McCain, you can always count on Conservatives to pop up over gay marriage issues. They seem to slink away on those other kinds of issues, but so long as there's two people in love who want to get married, they'll be there to thwart it and decry it anyway they can!
40	imadisneygal Tue 4/15/2008 7:17p	"Except that most people do see marriage as defined in this way and it is very easy to see it in children who cling to a mother and father and will know where it doesn't exist." In our country, yes. It's a matter of culture, not biological fact. In other countries some children live in multigenerational households and are raised primarily by their grandparents or other relatives. In other cultures such as the Navajo anyone who is a female relative of your biological mother is called "mother." Children in these other cultures do not feel something missing from their lives. It's just their life. I am not sure why people find it so threatening to acknowledge that our way is not the only way. Or even the best way. Really.

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