World Events
Topic: Schwarzenegger To Oppose Same Sex Marriage Ban

#	Author	Message
61	Dabob2 Thu 4/17/2008 7:36a	>>Polygamy is merely a social arrangement.<< <Wow, that was what they said about gay people a few decades ago.> Not so long ago it was not well understood that being gay IS intrinsic to the individual. Not so long ago, the assumption was that everyone was "naturally" straight and that homosexuality was merely bad behavior on the part of straight people. We know better than that now. Most of us, anyway. <Gay is one thing. Gay marriage is where the arguments are now. Funny how you say polygamy is different....> Because it is different. Funny how that works. >>Allowing gay or straight people multiple spouses has nothing to do with that, since polygamy is not intrinsic to any individual.<< <Of course polygamy is intrinsic to the person and those that choose to enter into the arrangement have many ideas about how it works for them.> Of course it is not intrinsic. Do you understand what "intrinsic" means? It doesn't mean what you like or would like to have or fantasize about or what "works" for you. It means what you ARE. Nobody is born polygamous. No one discovers at puberty "hey, I'm polygamous." They discover which of the sexes (sometimes both) they're attracted to. After that, everything is merely a social arrangement. But the basic attraction is intrinsic. <You also defined it rather narrowly. Some have a more broad opinion of the situation like a bisexuality where a man might marry two women and the women themselves might consider themselves to be married to each other. Or two men and two women like a real foursome. You can't deny that this doesn't happen.> It happens. But that's an arrangement, not something intrinsic to any of the people involved. If you want to argue for legalized polygamy, go ahead. Some societies have allowed it. Many in fact, over the centuries. But I'm not arguing for that. I'm arguing for allowing gay people to receive equal treatment to straight people in this country. Right now straight people can marry one person of their choice; gay people can not. I'd like to equalize that situation. If you'd like to argue that gay and straight people both should be able to marry multiple people, go ahead. I don't think you'll find a great deal of support, either here or society-wide, but you're free to do so. Societies define for themselves what marriage means. For most of human history, actually, it meant someone your parents chose for you as a teenager, almost certainly from the same tribe and religion as yourself, whether you wanted to or not, and there was an important transfer of property component to it. Not so long ago here, it meant a man and woman of the same race only. But that wasn't right and wasn't fair. Right now it means straight people only. That's not right or fair either. Gay people - now that we know they exist and aren't just "straight people behaving badly" - should be included and treated equally. I believe eventually this society will keep it to monogamy (as indeed the countries that have legalized gay marriage have all done), and simply recognize gay people as equal citizens. <And also in the previous posts, there's no legal argument against incest. While there is a argument against birth defects, the odds are quite low it will happen. In addition, there is absolutely no reason to prevent brother/brother or sister/sister marriage.> As I said, societies define marriage for themselves. I don't think you'll find incest included. Ever heard - anywhere in the world - of a movement to legalize incest? Didn't think so. I suppose you could argue for legalizing a person marrying a cabbage, but it starts to get ridiculous. You're not going to find anyone who WANTS to marry a cabbage. The whole slippery slope argument, ultimately, falls apart when you examine the countries that have allowed gay marriage. You haven't seen legalized polygamy, incest, or people marrying goats in any of them. Nor have you addressed that inconvenient little fact.
62	woody Thu 4/17/2008 7:51a	>>I'm arguing for allowing gay people to receive equal treatment to straight people in this country.<< But fail to see the implication of such accommodation.
63	Dabob2 Thu 4/17/2008 7:56a	The implication of equal treatment? What horrors might that bring? I don't "fail to see" what you think might happen, I simply disagree that it would. It hasn't happened anywhere else.
64	Mr X Thu 4/17/2008 7:57a	Which side do you fall on Woody? Homophobe or Thumper? I'm guessing the former.
65	ecdc Thu 4/17/2008 9:12a	You know what? It dawns on me just how absurd this whole conversation is. We accommodate woody and Douglasdubh with politeness, because that's what our culture expects and that's what LP rules dictate. But they don't really deserve politeness on this topic. Once again, we have to be tolerant because religion dictates people's homophobia and bigotry. As always, religion trumps basic decency, equality, and treating others the way they should be treated. To put it another way, would we tolerate or be polite if we substituted "gay" for "black" or "Jew" in their posts? It's absolutely disgusting that we live in a culture that accepts this debate as if it's a legitimate one. It's not; it's just as bigoted as racism. If woody were here saying black people shouldn't be able to get married and have equal rights because of the implications and the threat to traditional values, not only would we rightly respond with outrage, he'd most likely be booted from the site. I suggest we stop accommodating this behavior (on LP and elsewhere in our lives) by being polite and having a conversation. It enables people to believe this issue really is up for debate, and therefore implies that the homophobic, bigoted position really is a reasonable, tenable one. It's not. It's bigotry, no different than bigotry previously seen in our culture. And we need to start treating it as such.
66	woody Thu 4/17/2008 9:28a	You should go back and read Dabob's posts. He sounds like a bigot against incest and polygamists like it's not intrinsic.
67	plpeters70 Thu 4/17/2008 9:29a	Well said, ecdc!!!
68	woody Thu 4/17/2008 9:40a	>>The whole slippery slope argument, ultimately, falls apart when you examine the countries that have allowed gay marriage. You haven't seen legalized polygamy, incest, or people marrying goats in any of them. Nor have you addressed that inconvenient little fact.<< The countries that "allowed" it have done it through the court system. That's why it's the slippery slope argument. Otherwise, legalizing it through legislation would not be disputed quite as strongly because public acceptance is more legitimate.
69	ecdc Thu 4/17/2008 10:06a	>>You should go back and read Dabob's posts. He sounds like a bigot against incest and polygamists like it's not intrinsic.<< As per usual, that makes no sense. And as Dabob2 demonstrated, polygamy and incest is not intrinsic. Bigotry is bigotry, woody. You can dress it up like many Americans did in the 1940s and 1950s when they were bigoted against blacks by calling it something else. We can call it "marriage protection" or pretend like we're worried about everything else - just like they were. But they were bigots, and those who oppose gay marriage today are bigots too.
70	Dabob2 Thu 4/17/2008 10:14a	<like it's not intrinsic.> It's not. Look up "intrinsic." <The countries that "allowed" it have done it through the court system. That's why it's the slippery slope argument. Otherwise, legalizing it through legislation would not be disputed quite as strongly because public acceptance is more legitimate.> You're as ignorant of this as you are of global warming. You simply don't have the basic facts straight. http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06....html?hp "The Spanish Parliament gave final approval today to a bill legalizing same-sex marriage, making Spain only the second nation to eliminate all legal distinctions between same-sex and heterosexual unions, according to supporters of the bill." See that, woody? The Spanish Parliament. A parliament is kind of like Congress. It's a legislative body. I figure you know that, but considering your recent posts, I thought I should check. "But only Canada's law, which was extended nationwide by Parliament this week, contains language as liberal as Spain's, according to gay marriage advocates." Again, note that pesky word "Parliament." That would be Canada's Parliament. (ecdc): "It's not. It's bigotry, no different than bigotry previously seen in our culture. And we need to start treating it as such." You're probably right, of course, but I at least wanted to set some basic facts straight.

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