World Events
Topic: Schwarzenegger To Oppose Same Sex Marriage Ban

#	Author	Message
81	Dabob2 Thu 4/17/2008 10:57a	<I **feel** that men are born polygamous but I certainly can't prove/test it.> Note what polygamous means: multiple marriages. Marriage is a legal term. Men may be born straight, and have a desire to do it with women other than their wives. But to actually be married, with all the legal ramifications to more than one woman simultaneously? That's not intrinsic, that's a social arrangement.
82	ecdc Thu 4/17/2008 11:00a	>>I **feel** that men are born polygamous but I certainly can't prove/test it.<< This is a different issue, though. Biologically, men are not monogamous in the sense that they naturally want to only mate with one woman - I agree with you there. But like others have said, polygamy is a social arrangement, a different thing than a guy going out and having sex with multiple women over the course of his life. Polygamy involves marriage and commitment to multiple women.
83	ecdc Thu 4/17/2008 11:01a	Great minds think alike, Dabob :)
84	woody Thu 4/17/2008 11:06a	>>We've seen incest, polygamy or marrying a goat legalized in Massachusetts?<< Certainly, if one want to bring up a legal case, it could happen, but we've barely scratched the surface of the ramifications. Legislative history is yet to be made. With the innovations from Mass, there is much precedence to be made. >>Legislatures often act first. Sometimes they enact things that are unconstitutional. And THEN the court has to step in and say "you can't do that." In fact, legislatures are just as apt to act first as courts are. If you knew history, you'd know this. But you don't.<< I have no dispute with you on this except for the last snide comment. Courts could decide the restrictions on polygamy or other marriages are equally unConstitutional. You can't say it works exclusively with same sex marriages and it stops there. The dam was broken in some states. It isn't finished in those state either; however, more can happen and until then, you can't say it isn't possible.
85	woody Thu 4/17/2008 11:14a	>>Men may be born straight, and have a desire to do it with women other than their wives. But to actually be married, with all the legal ramifications to more than one woman simultaneously? That's not intrinsic, that's a social arrangement.<< People are practicing polygamy. I would think it is considered intrinsic to those people even if it isn't legal. It's innate to want to be with several women at the same time, but even if you disagree, the same standard that gays would want to be regarded should be respected unless you think it is different, then it is rather inconsistent.
86	Dabob2 Thu 4/17/2008 11:16a	>>We've seen incest, polygamy or marrying a goat legalized in Massachusetts?<< <Certainly, if one want to bring up a legal case, it could happen,> But you said it HAD happened in Massachusetts. Wrong again. <but we've barely scratched the surface of the ramifications. Legislative history is yet to be made. With the innovations from Mass, there is much precedence to be made.> So it hasn't happened, but you fear it will. Like I said. <I have no dispute with you on this except for the last snide comment.> It's only there because you're demonstrating your lack of knowledge here. <Courts could decide the restrictions on polygamy or other marriages are equally unConstitutional. You can't say it works exclusively with same sex marriages and it stops there.> I believe polygamy has faced court challenges and lost in our history, has it not? Utah had to give up any claim to polygamy to join the union, and that passed constitutional muster. Also, someone has to challenge the law for the law to be changed via the courts. A polygamist would have to challenge his right to multiple spouses. Given our history, his chances would not be good. He'd also have to prove he wasn't receiving equal protection under the law, something that would be impossible to prove, if he could marry as many people as anyone else could. Because, again, polygamy is a social arrangement and not intrinsic to the individual, as sexual orientation is. Because of this, eventually the courts will decide (if the legislatures don't beat them to it) that gay people must have equal protections and therefore can marry, but will not decide the same thing for polygamy. The legal cases are different, though you don't want to admit so. <The dam was broken in some states. It isn't finished in those state either; however, more can happen and until then, you can't say it isn't possible.> Well, the Massachusetts legislature COULD declare that everyone must eat beets every day or be deported to New Hampshire, but they're not going to. The "this COULD happen" argument is about as weak as it gets. I can say with certainly that it hasn't happened yet and is unlikely to, for the reasons I gave above. You have only your irrational fears to consider it likely.
87	Dabob2 Thu 4/17/2008 11:20a	"I would think it is considered intrinsic" Look up "intrinsic" fercryoutloud. If you're going to use a word, KNOW WHAT IT MEANS. < the same standard that gays would want to be regarded should be respected unless you think it is different, then it is rather inconsistent.> No. It's trying to say that polygamy has anything to do with basic sexual orientation that is inconsistent. If the law in CA changed tomorrow and you were allowed a second wife, the law would have changed but YOU wouldn't have. You'd have been straight yesterday, and straight tomorrow. But guess what - I was gay yesterday and I'm going to be gay tomorrow. THAT's intrinsic to each of us. How many legal spouses we can have is a function of the law, not us individually.
88	EighthDwarf Thu 4/17/2008 11:22a	Um, can't we make the slippery slope (if there is one) vanish by making the law clear? "marriage can be between 1 consenting unmarried adult HUMAN (for you bestiality weirdos) to 1 consenting unmarried adult human". Who would be left out of this equation? The polygamists? The sheep-o-files? We're talking about legislating a contract, not sex here. People can still make whoopie to their sofa if they want... Speak the truth you guys (you know who you are)....you just hate gay folks.
89	woody Thu 4/17/2008 11:26a	>>But you said it HAD happened in Massachusetts. Wrong again.<< With gay marriage, it has happened as precedence as how polygamy could be argued. >>Also, someone has to challenge the law for the law to be changed via the courts. A polygamist would have to challenge his right to multiple spouses.<< Haven't I been saying this? >>Given our history, his chances would not be good.<< Given how gay marriages is argued in Mass, it is more likely there than not. In California, it hasn't gotten very far, which is perhaps what is needed. >>I can say with certainly that it hasn't happened yet and is unlikely to, for the reasons I gave above.<< Probability of it happening is less likely due to recent court rulings with the exception of Massachusetts, but it is still possible despite any arguments you're making. Again you're ignoring my paragraph "It's innate to want to be with several women at the same time, but even if you disagree, the same standard that gays would want to be regarded should be respected unless you think it is different, then it is rather inconsistent."
90	woody Thu 4/17/2008 11:28a	>>It's trying to say that polygamy has anything to do with basic sexual orientation that is inconsistent.<< And you think I'm narrowminded.

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