World Events
Topic: What is a Christian to you?

#	Author	Message
161	cmpaley Sun 5/4/2008 9:29a	>>cm, I'm not talking about official accessories for the priesthood. What you're failing to acknowledge is that these items don't really signify any official capacity given by God. You BELIEVE they do, but that's not the reality for millions upon millions of people. As signs of the priesthood, alright, these are their official signs but that's not the same as a sign from God. I wasn't talking about the priesthood or book of Mormon, either. You believe certain things make people official, but there is NOTHING that can really, truly be called official because we're dealing with faith. My comment was it would be nice if there was something truly official from God. It remains to be seen whether or not they're "official". (My belief is that God doesn't care about any of this sort of thing but I don't expect you to say that my beliefs are official.)<< Actually, that's not quite true. Jesus Christ Himself, Who is God Incarnate, ordained the Apostles. I'd say that's pretty official. Each and every Bishop in both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches can trace their line of ordination all the way back to one of the the Twelve. In other words, St. Peter ordained St. Paul who ordained St. Timothy who ordained...and so on to several Bishops and Priests in the Catholic and Orthodox Churches today. This is called Apostolic Succession. Mormons get around this by this claim of apostacy (which has no basis in history) so they can say that Joseph Smith was the one ordained by God to restore the priesthood. Funny that. I'm curious...where are the Golden Plates now? And why does the angel Joseph Smith saw have a different kind of name than all the other Archangels we know of (MichaEL, GabriEL, RaphaEL)? Was Moroni an archangel or something else?
162	cmpaley Sun 5/4/2008 9:30a	>>Oh, btw, I don't think Peter wore a pointy hat. A ring maybe, but that is because there is evidence out there he might have been married.<< The Mitre didn't become part of ecclesiastical garb until later. It's called development. As to Pope St. Peter being married, I think we can say for certain that he was.
163	cmpaley Sun 5/4/2008 9:32a	>> It certainly should be. They are claiming authority to tell everyone else what it means to be a moral person. "Do as I say, not as I do" doesn't cut it.<< I don't disagree in principle. Their actions don't make the message false, though. Ever hear the story of David an Bathsheba? We all know Sansom and Delila. Mighty men who fell but were restored. This shows two things: 1) the Christian life ain't easy and 2) God forgives even the most heinous sin once a person repents.
164	cmpaley Sun 5/4/2008 9:36a	>>Yeah, if you have the Holy Ghost, and it can only be with you when your worthy.<< No one is "worthy" to receive the grace of the Holy Spirit. That He (the Holy Spirit) comes to anyone is pure, unmerited grace considering everything that comes before is of grace (Baptism, Confession, etc.). Remember, St. Paul, when discussing the initial grace of salvaton, says that it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast (Eph. 2:9).
165	EighthDwarf Sun 5/4/2008 11:22a	<<Mormons get around this by this claim of apostacy (which has no basis in history) so they can say that Joseph Smith was the one ordained by God to restore the priesthood. Funny that.>> Without the apostasy, there is no need for Joseph Smith. Without Joseph Smith, there is no Mormon religion. So they kind of need the apostasy to be real. <<I'm curious...where are the Golden Plates now?>> God took them back to heaven, that trickster. I guess he figured that the discovery of the rosetta stone might make the Golden Plates look like a comic book. <<And why does the angel Joseph Smith saw have a different kind of name than all the other Archangels we know of (MichaEL, GabriEL, RaphaEL)? Was Moroni an archangel or something else?" Moroni (accoding to their belief) was a native american. Their language and nomencalture (according to their belief) was based on reformed egyptian - the language of the golden plates and book of mormon. Why a hebrew people would use the inefficient and pagan egyptian language defies logic. But that doesn't really matter I guess.
166	EighthDwarf Sun 5/4/2008 11:26a	BTW, Moroni is also the name of the capital city of the African island nation of Comoros, which was discovered by the Europeans in the late 18th century. What's interesting is that the name of the hill in which Moroni hid the Golden Plates (and where Joseph Smith found them hidden) was named Cumorah (awfully close to the name Comoros, don't you think?). Coincidence?
167	mele Sun 5/4/2008 12:06p	Is this Moroni guy any relation to Boney Moroni? ;-)
168	Elderp Sun 5/4/2008 1:50p	"(which has no basis in history) " Well except that for that big 200 year gap between the old and new testament. The reason I am not a Catholic is because I believe there are far too many instances in Catholic history where there were lapses in priesthood authority. The middle ages has in my opinion the most agregious of lapses. I realize that is offense to a Catholic person to deny the priesthood lineage of the Pope and so I appologize and would ask that you just take it as a statement of my faith. I respect the Catholic church as an ok religion, I just don't believe in it.
169	EighthDwarf Sun 5/4/2008 3:46p	<<"(which has no basis in history) " Well except that for that big 200 year gap between the old and new testament. >> I'm confused. I thought the apostasy occurred after new testament times - not between the new and old testaments. <<The reason I am not a Catholic is because I believe there are far too many instances in Catholic history where there were lapses in priesthood authority.>> There are certainly questionable times in catholic history but if they did have the priesthood authority until the middle ages I would think it would be tough to assume that every single priesthood holder went astray during that time. After all, the priesthood is conferred by bishops, not the pope (usually). And there were an awful lot of bishops in the middle ages...
170	Elderp Sun 5/4/2008 3:54p	"I'm confused. I thought the apostasy occurred after new testament times - not between the new and old testaments." It did but I pointed it out to demonstate that there are times when the God's church was not on the earth. That time however was not an apostasy, even though God's church fell away there were still a few that were dedicated enough to continue priesthood authority. This is evident in John the Baptist who Jesus Christ recognized as having the authority to baptize.

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