World Events
Topic: What is a Christian to you?

#	Author	Message
51	EighthDwarf Tue 4/29/2008 7:53p	<<The LDS church has no problem with being viewed as different. We proclaim our differences all the time. We also proclaim the similarities. What's the big problem?>> I think the problem is that you use Christianity to make your religion more palatable while insulting it at the same time. You can't have your cake and eat it too.
52	utahjosh Tue 4/29/2008 10:38p	We can't talk about similarities AND differences? Why not? We say exactly what we believe. Some of those things are very similar to other religions, some are very different. Why is that a problem? We can't help that other religions also believe in Jesus Christ. We can't help that they believe different things about Him, either. It's the way things are. Those are facts.
53	EighthDwarf Wed 4/30/2008 8:17a	I don't think it's fair to proclaim yourself as Christians while claiming that Christianity has it wrong. Your claims: You claimm the Christian church fell into apostasy shortly after Christ's death You claim the new testament was altered to hide some of christ's original teachings You claim Jesus went to America and established his church there and yet he essentially said nothing different there than he said in the holy land (nothing about prophets, temple worship, plural marriage, the celestial kingdom, or eternal families) You claim the Book of Mormom to be another testament of Jesus Christ when it's real purpose is to be a testimony of Joseph Smith You do geneology work to find lists of people, mostly Christians, so that you can baptize them by proxy and do other temple rituals for them because the christianity they had adopted was not good enough The only way to live with God is to believe in Joseph Smith and follow his teachings, though many of them are contrary to what Jesus taught *************************************** It's convenient, josh, for LDS to call themselves Christian. Like I said, it makes Mormonism more palatable. But I think it's misleading to do so. You have put volumes of words into Jesus' mouth that he never said. But because you say, "we believe christ lived and that he died for our sins" you think that gives you the right to call yourselves Christian. The gnostics were kind of like that. They created scriptures (the gnostic gospels) and attributed words to Peter, Mary, Jesus, etc. that they never said. The gnostics thought of themselves as Christian too but because they deviated from the original teachings of Jesus their teachings were disregarded as heretical. However, if Christians don't care anymore about people hijacking their religion, I suppose I shouldn't either...
54	utahjosh Wed 4/30/2008 8:49a	Eighth, so many of your statements in post 53 are either wrong or twisted that I'm not even going to take the time to correct them all. WOW! A LOT of that is just plain wrong.
55	utahjosh Wed 4/30/2008 9:06a	I changed my mind. This is too important to me, and I want to make sure any other people reading know the truth: You said the following were my claims: <You claimm the Christian church fell into apostasy shortly after Christ's death> I do claim that many of the truths that Christ taught and that were found in the writings of his Apostles were either changed or misunderstood over time. I think a guy named Martin Luther agrees with me. Oh, you left out the part that I believe that many good things were also kept around, and those things I agree with. <You claim the Book of Mormom to be another testament of Jesus Christ when it's real purpose is to be a testimony of Joseph Smith> ABSURD. The book says nothing (well, 1 thing) about Joseph Smith. It is FULL of witnesses of Jesus Christ. He is what the book is about. <You do geneology work to find lists of people, mostly Christians, so that you can baptize them by proxy and do other temple rituals for them> We find "mostly christians" because the ancestors of current LDS people are "mostly christians." Why is that a problem? We believe EVERYONE deserves an opportunity to have a baptism, no matter where and when the lived or what they believed. <because the christianity they had adopted was not good enough> We believe they were not baptized with the proper authority. They believed many great things that I agree with. <The only way to live with God is to believe in Joseph Smith and follow his teachings> WRONG. We believe the only way to live with God is to believe in Jesus Christ and follow His teachings. Joseph Smith is in the picture ONLY because he is a prophet and messenger of JESUS CHRIST. <though many of them are contrary to what Jesus taught> WRONG. They are contrary to what YOU think others say He taught.
56	utahjosh Wed 4/30/2008 9:11a	<It's convenient, josh, for LDS to call themselves Christian.> Again, define the word "Christian" for me. <You have put volumes of words into Jesus' mouth that he never said.> How do you know He didn't say them. Why is the Bible the only source of God's words? <But because you say, "we believe christ lived and that he died for our sins" you think that gives you the right to call yourselves Christian.> Yes I do. Isn't that enough? I don't claim my church is a branch of Christianity of the last hundreds of years. Never have done that. Never want to. I just claim there are many similarities, WHICH THERE ARE! I also celebrate the differences. I'm baffled why you have a problem with this.
57	EighthDwarf Wed 4/30/2008 10:51a	<<You said the following were my claims: <You claimm the Christian church fell into apostasy shortly after Christ's death> I do claim that many of the truths that Christ taught and that were found in the writings of his Apostles were either changed or misunderstood over time. I think a guy named Martin Luther agrees with me. Oh, you left out the part that I believe that many good things were also kept around, and those things I agree with.>> Josh, it's more than that. You believe the authority to act in the name of Christ disappeared early on. That makes all of the baptisms, marriages, funerals, etc. performed between the years of say 100AD and 1830 invalid. It's more than just information being lost. <You claim the Book of Mormom to be another testament of Jesus Christ when it's real purpose is to be a testimony of Joseph Smith> ABSURD. The book says nothing (well, 1 thing) about Joseph Smith. It is FULL of witnesses of Jesus Christ. He is what the book is about.>> Josh, people don't need the BoM to believe in Jesus but they do need it to believe Joseph Smith was a prophet. By definition, this is a testimony of Joseph Smith and not of Jesus Christ. >><You do geneology work to find lists of people, mostly Christians, so that you can baptize them by proxy and do other temple rituals for them> We find "mostly christians" because the ancestors of current LDS people are "mostly christians." Why is that a problem? We believe EVERYONE deserves an opportunity to have a baptism, no matter where and when the lived or what they believed.<< I get that. But the fact is you are telling Christians that, though they thought they were acting in the name f Christ for 1830 years, they WEREN'T. I think that's quite a bold statement and a slap in the face of all the Christian saints and martyrs. >><because the christianity they had adopted was not good enough> We believe they were not baptized with the proper authority. They believed many great things that I agree with.<< Translation, they did not actually act in the name of Christ. Again, I don't know how can try to align yourselves with Christians while stabbing them in the back like this. >><The only way to live with God is to believe in Joseph Smith and follow his teachings> WRONG. We believe the only way to live with God is to believe in Jesus Christ and follow His teachings. Joseph Smith is in the picture ONLY because he is a prophet and messenger of JESUS CHRIST.<< Josh, do you mean to tell me that I can go to the celestial kingdom if I don't believe in what Joseph Smith taught? (temple worship, word of wisdom, plural marriage, etc.) I think not. I sounds good to say all you have to do is follow the teachings of Christ, but you are putting words into Christ's mouth and telling everyone they have to follow them when Christ (as far as we know) never said them. >><though many of them are contrary to what Jesus taught><< WRONG. They are contrary to what YOU think others say He taught.>> They go contrary to Christian tradition as is shown in the bible and was carried down by the original christian church. Simple example for you: if I drink wine I can't go to the celstial kingdom (according to Mormons), yet Jesus' first miracle was to turn water into wine. I'm not trying to prove Christianity is better than Mormonism, I am simply trying to make the case that Mormons calling themselves Christians is not fair to Christians - and they probably don't even realize it. Mormons are Mormons, Christians are Christians, Muslims are Muslims, Jews are Jews, etc.
58	EighthDwarf Wed 4/30/2008 10:59a	<<Again, define the word "Christian" for me.>> A Christian in my opinion ascribes to the following beliefs: 1. They believe Christ was the physcial manifestation of God 2. Christ taught what was needed in order to leave this world behind 3. These teachings centered around loving everyone, hating the world and material possessions and living in peace. 4. Burdensome beliefs (such as the judaism he was born into) led people toward damnation rather than salvation whereas "the truth will set you free." 5. He took all of the sins of the world and became the sacrifical lamb when he died on the cross 6. All who believe his message and accept his sacrifice will be saved and will be with him forever 7. He had the foresight (after all, he was god, right?) to know that enough of his message would be carried on in order for people to be saved after he died 8. He warned of wolves in sheep's clothing and of people preaching false messages that would lead his sheep astray from his simple message
59	EighthDwarf Wed 4/30/2008 11:04a	>><You have put volumes of words into Jesus' mouth that he never said.> How do you know He didn't say them. Why is the Bible the only source of God's words?>> I don't know he didn't say them. But the Bible, as far as we know, is the ONLY source of Jesus' teachings. One man's claims (that have varied as we have previously discussed) that he spoke to God aren't enough for me to believe otherwise.
60	utahjosh Wed 4/30/2008 11:05a	I disagree with you definition of the word "Christian" in many ways. You give a whole lot of specifics. I believe it just means you worship the Christ talked about in the Bible, no matter your interpretation. We'll never agree on the other points if we disagree at that basic level.

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