Disneyland General
Topic: So after all this time - Reason? IASW topic

#	Author	Message
61	dshyates Tue 4/29/2008 6:42a	The Don Quixote got me thinking. Why couldn't they spice up IASW with more literary characters that, like Don Quixote, are NOT in Disney movies? Why wouldn't Disney do that? That wouldn't sell any plush. Thats why.
62	mawnck Tue 4/29/2008 8:01a	I don't think the issue is adults vs. children, or fantasy vs. reality. It's Disney Characters vs. The Whole Point Of The Attraction. If you say "the attraction doesn't have a point," then obviously you'd be wrong. If you say "the characters add to the point," then you'd better come up with a rational explanation as to how. (Which is what the Company has so far failed to do, although this seems to be the argument they're arguing.) If you say "the characters neither add to nor detract from the point," then we have the basis for a discussion. It's about communication. It's about reinforcing a point vs. distracting from it. Don Quixote? Part of Spanish culture since 1605. Blends in just dandy. Mermaids? I still have a hard time defending the mermaids, but I can see Members Only's point. They're a transition element representing the Oceans that are Wide, and they separate some clashing musical styles as well as two continents. Mulan? Pocahontas? Stitch? Those are Disney Characters that represent something else entirely. In a ride where the costumes and scenery are from different cultures, but the faces, song, and overall art direction represent a common humanity, they stick out like sore thumbs. One of the Disneyest things about IASW is that there's nothing "DISNEY!!!" in it. It tells its own story. It has its own message. Just like the movies, and the other attractions, and any well-told story in the history of humans. Stick the Disney Characters in it, and it's now got two clashing stories going simultaneously, and the new one will tend to drown out the original one. I've never seen any kids pointing and yelling "MOMMY MOMMY! THERE'S DON QUIXOTE!!", have you? He doesn't distract from the "common humanity" theme. But when you say "there's all these other Hawaiian kids, and then there's LILO (TM), FROM THE WALT DISNEY MOTION PICTURE LILO AND STITCH!!!" ... the theme is thwarted. (PS - If you say "who cares," then please stop bothering with such minor fiffle as artistic integrity and stick with the more important topics like what they're calling Toy Story Mania this week.)
63	trekkeruss Tue 4/29/2008 8:23a	<<Mulan? Pocahontas? Stitch? Those are Disney Characters that represent something else entirely.>> I'll grant you that Stitch doesn't seem to fit, but Mulan and Pocahontas do. Read #61. They are not just Disney characters... they predate Disney altogether, and can be seen as taken from literary works of different cultures. See how I can justify them as easily as you can justify Don Quixote and the mermaids? I've never seen any kids pointing and yelling <<"MOMMY MOMMY! THERE'S DON QUIXOTE!!", have you? He doesn't distract from the "common humanity" theme. But when you say "there's all these other Hawaiian kids, and then there's LILO (TM), FROM THE WALT DISNEY MOTION PICTURE LILO AND STITCH!!!" ... the theme is thwarted.>> If and when Stitch is placed in IASW, I doubt kids are going to shout "MOMMY, MOMMY, THERS'S STITCH!" and suddenly the parents will think IASW is not about the commonality of humanity.
64	mawnck Tue 4/29/2008 8:53a	>>They are not just Disney characters... they predate Disney altogether, and can be seen as taken from literary works of different cultures. See how I can justify them as easily as you can justify Don Quixote and the mermaids?<< In Disneyland, they are most definitely Disney Characters. We saw them in the parade not 20 minutes ago. And now you expect guests to suddenly accept them as the literary versions and not the Disney ones? I addressed this a few thousand posts ago. Rather than spend the next four hours looking for it, I'll restate. Let's take Alice. Alice is a beloved English character. Predates Disney by a gazillion years. Mary Blair her own self was heavily involved in the Disney flick, and, as Imagineering has been vociferous in pointing out, even designed Alice's look. If any Disney character could be safely put in IASW, Alice would be it. I'd be thrilled to have Alice included in the England scene ... IF there wasn't a Disney movie about her. Alice = inclusion justified as part of English literature. Alice in a Disney themepark = Distracting Disney Character. It is not the characters' identities as literary figures that causes the distraction. It is the fact that, through the movie and the subsequent marketing thereof, ALICE (TM) comes equipped with her own personality, her own agenda, her own WORLD even. Stick her in IASW, and she's still ALICE (TM) and thus is set apart from the commonality that the attraction was intended to celebrate. >>If and when Stitch is placed in IASW, I doubt kids are going to shout "MOMMY, MOMMY, THERS'S STITCH!" and suddenly the parents will think IASW is not about the commonality of humanity.<< Yes. They will. Which is the whole point. STITCH (TM) is Off Topic, and thus, even if only for a few seconds, causes the attraction to be about STITCH (TM) and NOT the commonality of humanity. The art of storytelling is the art of bringing people into an imaginary world, and the world of IASW is one of the best examples of this. ALICE (TM) in the world of IASW is just as bad as Megara showing up in Bambi. You may not forget, on a conscious level, that Bambi is a lyrical tale of nature and coming of age if Megara pops up and hums a few bars of I Won't Say I'm In Love in the middle of the twitterpated scene, but you've still spoiled it by introducing elements that have nothing to do with the any of that, and thus made the Real World the filmmakers of Bambi worked so hard to create much less real. Same with IASW.
65	dshyates Tue 4/29/2008 8:54a	"If and when Stitch is placed in IASW, I doubt kids are going to shout "MOMMY, MOMMY, THERS'S STITCH!" and suddenly the parents will think IASW is not about the commonality of humanity." Some will sigh and shake their heads at Disney's "do anything to sell plush" supersaturation marketing. And have one more reason to feel they have less reason to come to the parks. At what point do people start avoiding the parks because they got all Disneyed out just shopping at WalMart? Pooh and the Princesses have proved that supersaturation marketing will kill it in short order. This is the beginning of the end for IASW.
66	trekkeruss Tue 4/29/2008 9:01a	<<Yes. They will.>> No, they won't. How do I know? Because I am telling you it won't for me. If it does for you, I am sorry, but you can't say that everyone is going think the way you do. It doesn't work that way.
67	mawnck Tue 4/29/2008 9:33a	>>No, they won't. How do I know? Because I am telling you it won't for me. If it does for you, I am sorry, but you can't say that everyone is going think the way you do. It doesn't work that way.<< Storytelling is an art. What works and what doesn't are well established, regardless of the reactions of any individual. What we're talking about here is not perceived on a conscious level by the "typical" guest. Doesn't mean it isn't important.
68	trekkeruss Tue 4/29/2008 9:56a	<<What we're talking about here is not perceived on a conscious level by the "typical" guest.>> So you're saying I am one of the typical unwashed masses who has no sense of artistic integrity.
69	leobloom Tue 4/29/2008 10:20a	>>Dude .. just a little fyi ... I have more hobbies than I have time for.>> oc_d, if you didn't spend hours posting on IASW you'd have more time for those other hobbies, and your life will be more fulfilling! I read that on a fortune cookie.
70	danyoung Tue 4/29/2008 10:34a	>The art of storytelling is the art of bringing people into an imaginary world, and the world of IASW is one of the best examples of this. ALICE (TM) in the world of IASW is just as bad as Megara showing up in Bambi.< Y'know, I would agree with this, if I accepted that the iasw concept is chisled in stone as some here would believe. I don't. I feel Disney made the attraction in the first place, and now has come the time to make adjustments to make it interesting and yes, relevant to a new generation. The message will still be there, but it will broaden out to accept recognisable Disney characters as well as all the nameless dolls. There will be no diluting of the theme. Those that see the theme will continue to see it, and those that are too young to even realize what the theme is will have fun pointing out Alice and Stitch to their parents. The only ones who will have a hard time are those who feel that the attraction's makeup should never be changed or adjusted in any way.

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