World Events
Topic: Gay Marriage Ban Overturned by CA Supreme Court

#	Author	Message
201	SingleParkPassholder Sun 5/25/2008 1:57p	Factual dalmatians.
202	DouglasDubh Sun 5/25/2008 1:58p	<Aside from sperm banks and options along those lines, it is as simple as one of the women going out and getting herself pregnant.> Then that's not the gay couple creating a child, is it? In fact, none of your examples involve a gay couple creating offspring. That's because it's physically impossible. I'm not sure why this is such a hard concept for some to grasp.
203	DouglasDubh Sun 5/25/2008 1:59p	<But don't forget, this from a guy who has no compunction against destroying nature for a few more gallons of gas to satiate our overpopulated, overindulgent planet in the first place.> I've never advocated destroying nature.
204	DouglasDubh Sun 5/25/2008 2:00p	<It is the same sort of bigotry, in service of a different cause.> No, it's not.
205	DouglasDubh Sun 5/25/2008 2:03p	<I'm not a SCI-FI geek so will someone please tell me why I need to be so worried about the population dying out hundreds of years from now?> If you aren't concerned about Europe remaining European, or America or Canada remaining mostly American or Canadian, then you don't need to be concerned. In fact, you really don't have too worry about anything - right or wrong, or morals. Just do whatever makes you feel good, whenever you want. Consequences don't matter.
206	DouglasDubh Sun 5/25/2008 2:04p	<More opinion, no facts.> No, mine are facts.
207	mele Sun 5/25/2008 3:36p	<<In fact, you really don't have too worry about anything - right or wrong, or morals. Just do whatever makes you feel good, whenever you want. Consequences don't matter. >> ROFL! That's right, I'M the immoral one in this scenario. You seem to think you've got some responsibility to tell people how to live their lives. Who the hell are you to give someone consequences in this area? (Hint: you're no one.) But yes, you're right, allowing people to have the same rights as me DOES make me feel good. Pity you get your thrills doing the opposite. And the fact that you're PROUD of it...incredible. Yes, pity is the word to use. Or rather, pitiful.
208	Dabob2 Sun 5/25/2008 3:46p	<No one has ever shown how the data is twisted or why it's not credible. It's simply been dismissed.> Not true, of course. What Doug posted in #190 are the same sources that were thoroughly discredited here a couple of years ago (though he refuses to admit it). The main flaw in these "studies" is a classic logical fallacy: correlation does not equal causation. For instance, the dollar has been getting weaker against the euro this decade. In this decade, we've also seen the premiere and popularity of American Idol. That doesn't mean AI caused the dollar to weaken vs. the euro. This guy (and Doug) believe that because there has been a decline in marriage rates and an increase in out of wedlock births in the countries looked at, at the same time that gay marriage came into being, that this correlation equals causation. This is a logical fallacy to begin with. There is also a far, far more plausible explanation than that straight people suddenly started devaluing marriage simply because gay people could do it. That doesn't make sense anyway. Wouldn't it make more sense to see if something changed for STRAIGHT couples over this period? Lo and behold, it did. In these same countries, co-habiting but unmarried straight couples were granted most of the rights and responsibilities of marriage, without the name. Meaning that straight couples could simply co-habit and get most of the legal rights and protections of marriage. Is it any surprise that those to whom religious marriage rites are unimportant (and the countries looked at are among the more unreligious in Europe), or who wanted to continue hedging their bets, or who simply were content as they were, might not decide to marry? And that more children might be born to these couples? (And even if they got married later, as many did, the children still count as "out of wedlock.") What makes more sense: that a straight couple in a country like this says "Well, we could get married, but legally we're all but married now anyway - what's the rush? Maybe we'll do it later?" or "Well, I'd love to get married, but gay people can do it now, so that just ruins it for us." Me, I think that marriage should retain a special status for any couple, straight or gay, who decides to make that commitment, and remain distinct from co-habitation. As long as everyone has equal access to it, that's what matters. The countries looked at here have decided to make co-habitation nearly equal to marriage, so is it any surprise their marriage rates have fallen? I don't believe, however, that the percentage of straight people forming couples has changed, just those getting technically married. The fact that gay people can legally marry does not seem to have changed the number of straight people who form couples, nor should there be any reason to believe it would. If we in this country do not make co-habitation nearly equal to marriage (and I know of no particular movement to do so, unlike the movement for marriage equality), then we can avoid the experience of these countries. This was said to Douglas last time, and he ignored it and chose to believe what he wants to believe, based on these discredited studies.
209	SingleParkPassholder Sun 5/25/2008 4:08p	"This was said to Douglas last time, and he ignored it and chose to believe what he wants to believe, based on these discredited studies." A week or so ago I said something to the effect that I'd have more respect for people if they just came out and said they didn't like it, couldn't get used to it, etc., rather than hide behind some convoluted reasons. Douglas would be one of those to whom I was referring.
210	X-san Sun 5/25/2008 6:20p	***Then that's not the gay couple creating a child, is it? In fact, none of your examples involve a gay couple creating offspring. That's because it's physically impossible. I'm not sure why this is such a hard concept for some to grasp.*** The examples I cited are no different than what an infertile couple might attempt in order to have a child. Not to mention your particular rantings are pretty darned insulting to the selfless families who adopt children, infertile or not. So, Douglas, according to your theory a certifiably infertile couple is also useless to society. Would you advocate testing, and banning such persons from the option marriage as well? If not, why not? Your argument by default includes them as well.

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