World Events
Topic: Gay Marriage Ban Overturned by CA Supreme Court

#	Author	Message
321	X-san Tue 5/27/2008 5:37p	***I don't believe my church leaders believed that blacks were "inferior." Just that they could not hold the priesthood.*** "Following the death of Joseph Smith, Jr. and the succession crisis, leaders of the major Latter Day Saint movement denomination, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, continued to welcome all people regardless of color to be members; however, they began to exclude most people of black African descent (regardless of actual skin color) from Priesthood ordination and from participation in temple ceremonies. These practices continued until September 30, 1978" Sounds pretty inferior to me. http://tinyurl.com/6omwkg
322	Elderp Tue 5/27/2008 6:45p	^ Most of the external links on that wiki article were anti-lds links. One however was interesting to me. http://www.blacklds.org/ I just learned that there were several blacks that were ordained to the priesthood prior to 1978. Like I said, I don't understand this concept yet. I also saw this article as interesting: http://www.blacklds.org/mauss
323	DouglasDubh Tue 5/27/2008 7:13p	<You asserted I was wrong the last time we went into this, but "showed" nothing to anyone's satisfaction but your own.> The proof is in the articles I linked to. That you've chosen to ignore the information doesn't make me responsible for your lack of satisfaction. <The mere fact that you can assert this when there was a very obvious alternate candidate - the change in legal status for non-married STRAIGHT couples - shows how blinkered your view is.> Again, if you'd bothered to read the article, instead of dismissing it, you'd find that the author considered that possibility, and the evidence ruled it out. "I contacted senior Dutch demographer, Joop Garssen, to find out if sociologists and demographers had been able to account for Holland's rising rates of out-of-wedlock birth. In various publications, Garssen has argued persuasively that historically low out-of-wedlock birthrates in the Netherlands are rooted in traditionalism. Together with British demographer David Coleman, Garssen has suggested that continued low out-of-wedlock births in the Netherlands could mark out the Dutch system as a moderately traditionalist alternative to the Swedish model. Yet the record of the past seven years calls that into serious question. So how do Garssen and his colleagues explain the recent surge in parental cohabitation? They don't: Garssen has canvassed the experts, and they're stumped. None of the conventional explanations for increased births outside of marriage works. And Garssen explicitly rejects an explanation that might be offered by gay-marriage advocates. In 1996 the Dutch parliament approved a system of "registered partnerships," open to both homosexual and heterosexual couples. Registered partnerships went into effect in 1998, and formal same-sex marriage followed in 2000. So perhaps the recent surge in out-of-wedlock births was caused when registered partnerships drew heterosexual parents into non-marital unions. Yet Garssen notes that the number of registered heterosexual partnerships is too small to explain the surge in the out-of-wedlock birthrate."
324	DouglasDubh Tue 5/27/2008 7:21p	<Because we can't tell from looking at them if they're post-menopausal. Really, that was his answer.> No, that's a characture of my answer. My actual answer talked about tradition and precedent and averages. The truth is that, until recently society couldn't know which couples were infertile, and why. But most couples werent, and most couples had children. When older couples married, it often was the case that children were still involved. It doesn't appear that infertile couples ever had an effect on marriage rates the way that same-sex marriages appear to be having.
325	DouglasDubh Tue 5/27/2008 7:28p	<Doug conveniently never answers those questions, showing that's where our focus should be.> I'll answer any honest question, but I'd rather not respond to dismissals, distortions, and demonizations. If I'm so obviously wrong, why doesn't anyone present actual evidence of it? Show me evidence that same-sex marriage hasn't harmed marriage rates in the places it's been tried, and I'll admit I'm wrong.
326	SingleParkPassholder Tue 5/27/2008 9:30p	"Show me evidence that same-sex marriage hasn't harmed marriage rates in the places it's been tried, and I'll admit I'm wrong." How's Massachusetts doing? Pretty damn well. http://www.talk2action.org/sto...5516/198 Interesting: http://mediamatters.org/items/...06080003 http://blog.washingtonpost.com...e_1.html
327	mele Tue 5/27/2008 9:42p	http://islandia.law.yale.edu/G...ageBook/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D..._Spedale
328	DouglasDubh Tue 5/27/2008 10:32p	I appreciate you guys trying, but nothing in those links invalidates the points that Kurtz made in his essays. In fact he specifically refuted the charges of Spedale and other critics in one of the essays. You might want to take another look at it (or a first). http://article.nationalreview....ZTM1NWQ=
329	SingleParkPassholder Wed 5/28/2008 5:22a	Dreamer, nothing but a dreamer....
330	Dabob2 Wed 5/28/2008 9:00a	<<You asserted I was wrong the last time we went into this, but "showed" nothing to anyone's satisfaction but your own.>> <The proof is in the articles I linked to. That you've chosen to ignore the information doesn't make me responsible for your lack of satisfaction.> I didn't "ignore the information" - I pointed out it was based on logical flaws. That you refuse to see this means nothing except that you refuse to see it. <<The mere fact that you can assert this when there was a very obvious alternate candidate - the change in legal status for non-married STRAIGHT couples - shows how blinkered your view is.>> <Again, if you'd bothered to read the article, instead of dismissing it, you'd find that the author considered that possibility, and the evidence ruled it out. > The evidence didn't rule it out - his attempt to find a conclusion that fit his pre-conceived notions "ruled it out." He says his experts (and who's to say he didn't find experts friendly to his point of view?) are "stumped." Yet they conclude it must be the gay marriages. That doesn't make sense. "Yet Garssen notes that the number of registered heterosexual partnerships is too small to explain the surge in the out-of-wedlock birthrate." The number of gay marriages are also pretty small. So why does one small number "explain" it while the other small number - that actually involves straight couples - did not. This study you put so much stock in is a classic example of someone with an agenda setting out to "prove" something and through a series of faulty leaps in logic says he's "proved" it. It's quite easy to see through, but the gullible (or, more to the point, those who WANT to believe it) will believe it.

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