DCA, Future Expansion
Topic: Barry Braverman Interview

#	Author	Message
31	Hans Reinhardt Wed 5/28/2008 1:55p	"I use the term blindly because you have no facts to back up your supposition." Of course I don't, my supposition was based on a scenario as per post 24. As you can see that poster's comments had no facts to support his/her position, which was my point. "And how silly of me to confuse in the lagoon with around the lagoon, where apparently lack of foresight is completely acceptable." Explain to me what kind of viewing area arrangement should they have designed in 2001 for a show that hadn't even been conceived yet. Sorry, but I can't follow that kind of logic.
32	Park Hopper Wed 5/28/2008 2:35p	From Post 24 "But they KNEW that they were going to be adding a show to the Bay eventually." I seem to remember this being announced along with Tower of Terror and an Ursula Spinner as part of DCA's second phase. But I can't point you toward an iron clad source, but there is plently of anecdotal evidence all over the internet. And the rapid introduction of Luminaria would seem to back it up. Fact or no? I guess it's still a grey area. "And they chose not to add the suggested infrastructure before they poured the concrete." This is a fact. "Now they have to drain the bay, rip out the bottom and start over." This is also a fact. "They are also adding the tiered viewing area suggested before it was built." Again there is anecdotal evidence that this is a fact, certainly more evidence to support this statement then there is to refute it. I suppose in the end, it comes down to what you choose to believe. Looking at Disney's history of adding shows to large lagoon areas in their parks (Epcot & DisneySea) I tend to believe that they always had one in mind for DCA. Again, the rapid introduction of Luminaria would seem to back that up. So that is what I choose to believe and why I choose to believe it. I would be very interested to hear why you choose to believe Disney never intended there to be a show in Paradise Bay.
33	Hans Reinhardt Wed 5/28/2008 3:42p	"I suppose in the end, it comes down to what you choose to believe." And I suppose that no one here has all of the facts, or the reasoning behind why a viewing area or other show infrastructures were not in the original design, or even a clear understanding as to why the park opened without a lagoon show in the first place. Since none of use were privy to the discussions that were held on the subject at WDI it's kind of absurd to contend that the omission of these features was an expensive "mistake". For all we know money was reserved for the future development of a lagoon show to be built at some unspecified time. I know that this is unlikely, but it serves to illustrate how little we know about Disney's financial planning process and what really constitutes "expensive" and "mistake" for a multi-billion dollar entertainment conglomerate. "I would be very interested to hear why you choose to believe Disney never intended there to be a show in Paradise Bay." I don't have an answer for you since I never asserted that they didn't.
34	DlandDug Wed 5/28/2008 3:53p	>>Disneyland didn't have Fantasmic when it opened - in fact it didn't have a lot of things it has now when it opened. This what I mean when I say there was a good foundation for long term growth when DCA debuted.<< Disneyland was a "complete" park when it opened. There was a good mix of attractions, shopping, and dining experiences. It was almost immediately overwhelmed due to popularity, and additions were made. Accommodations had been made for expansion. There were also things that Walt wanted but couldn't add until there was more money in the budget. DCA was (notoriously) "incomplete" when it opened. The attraction count was skimpy, and shops and restaurants were overbuilt, especially high end restaurants. There was a decidedly underwhelming public response. While there were vast accommodations for expansion (ie: entire undeveloped areas), it was indeed announced (before the place opened) that we could expect additions on a fairly regular schedule. Instead of enhancements based on the popularity of the park (as happened with Disneyland), DCA instead was hastily added to in an effort to increase attendance. Recall that Flick's Fun Fair and Tower of Terror were announced simultaneously on DCA's first birthday. The Tower was supposed to be the "silver bullet" to drive the never-materialized attendance goals. It didn't happen. So we got Who Wants to Be a Millionaire: Play It and the remodel of Superstar Limo into Monsters, Inc: Mike and Sully to the Rescue. The Aladdin stage show and Luminaria were also in the mix. Summer promotions (Rockin' the Bay, X Games Xperience, for example) were also tried. None of these, ultimately, created the kind of public response that was originally expected. In the theme parks that came before DCA additions and changes were made in response to public demand. At DCA, additions and changes are being proposed in an effort to build public demand. That's the difference.
35	DlandDug Wed 5/28/2008 4:01p	>>And I suppose that no one here has all of the facts...<< This reasoning is constantly brought up when logical discussion of DCA's failure has been exhausted. Apparently, unless one can produce a Disney internal document with the words "WE GOOFED" written on it, all other observations based on available information are null and void. >>...or the reasoning behind why a viewing area or other show infrastructures were not in the original design, or even a clear understanding as to why the park opened without a lagoon show in the first place. Since none of use were privy to the discussions that were held on the subject at WDI it's kind of absurd to contend that the omission of these features was an expensive "mistake".<< On the contrary, based on what has happened and is happening it is completely reasonable to contend that a rather expensive "mistake" was made. Besides, ever since the first Summer there has been lively and informed discussion on why there was no accommodation for a night time show. Paradise Bay is so obviously sited for such a thing that it is plain that something was done wrong.
36	dshyates Wed 5/28/2008 4:56p	Well, here is an article from 11/2001 that mentions the problem. http://www.mouseplanet.com/archive/update36.htm And here is a quote from post #21 in the Joe Rohde Gets It! thread: "I remember the conversation about the lagoon. The menu planning called for a lagoon show to open during the first five years - it was on the plan. So Tim said to Barry, Paul and Timur that they needed to get the infrastructure in place when it was being built. The problem was that that was going to cost more initially and that isn't how their mindset worked. So instead all of the lagoon is going to be ripped apart to put in basic utilities for World of Color before even considering the special stuff that Steven Davison needs for the show. It is now costing nearly ten times what it would have done back in '99."
37	Hans Reinhardt Wed 5/28/2008 5:39p	"The menu planning called for a lagoon show to open during the first five years - it was on the plan." Okay. Great. "The problem was that that was going to cost more initially and that isn't how their mindset worked." Exactly. So, as I said, what kind of infrastructure do you design for a show that hasn't even been created yet and won't be for at least 5 years. It turned out to be almost 10. Maybe it is costing them more now, but how much would it have cost to rip out half the stuff they built in 2001 in order to modify the lagoon and surroundings to accommodate World of Color today?
38	dshyates Wed 5/28/2008 6:09p	My guess is that if they had included it originally, implementing the WOC show would cost a lot less. That was the entire point of Leemacs post, which was made on the 14th of this month.
39	2001DLFan Wed 5/28/2008 9:00p	<<mawnck: Recessions are the time you INCREASE spending on infrastructure and advertising as much as you possibly can, to solidify your market dominance and shore up weak areas. Why? Because it's CHEAPER then, and your competition won't have enough sense to do it, thus falling further behind. They're only concerned with looking bad in their next quarterly report, which is going to suck anyway. You should be smarter.>> YES! That's an issue that Disney SHOULD have understood the last time the economy tanked. The "Disney Decade" should have been followed through on and their parks would have been ahead of the curve when the economy recovered. Since they have their in house creative division, they might just as well let them do what they are paid for. I would bet that REAL investors (those who are actually looking for long-term returns), would be willing to accept a couple of years of less than stellar returns if they were confident that the significant improvements would result in REAL worthwhile returns. But, if Disney shirks on their current promises vis-à-vis concerning the upcoming DCA "plussing", those investors will be less than trusting of future Disney promises. It's no wonder that the Disney stock has been so apathetic over much of the past decade.
40	Park Hopper Thu 5/29/2008 8:16a	Let's also remember that these additions will take two to three years to complete. By then we will probably be climbing out of a recession and Disney will be perfectly positioned to take advantage of a stronger economy.

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