DCA, Future Expansion
Topic: Barry Braverman Interview

#	Author	Message
41	Park Hopper Thu 5/29/2008 8:28a	>>So, as I said, what kind of infrastructure do you design for a show that hasn't even been created yet and won't be for at least 5 years. It turned out to be almost 10. Maybe it is costing them more now, but how much would it have cost to rip out half the stuff they built in 2001 in order to modify the lagoon and surroundings to accommodate World of Color today?<< There are none so blind as those who clutch at straws. If you read the enitre post the term "basic utilites" was used. Given Disney's experience with lagoon shows, I'd bet good money they knew exactly what needed to be installed. They just didn't do it.
42	DlandDug Thu 5/29/2008 12:13p	>>So, as I said, what kind of infrastructure do you design for a show that hasn't even been created yet...<< I can give you an example based on my own work. A facility I worked on featured a large traffic circle in front of the building. The drive was to be built in concrete with full curbs. I asked the client what was to be placed in the circle. "Plantings" was the reply. I asked if there would be any electrically lit monument signs, or water features beyond irrigation. "No." But, knowing he client well, I authorized the contractor to lay in pipe sleeves under the drives. I also specified that the sleeves be placed in line with the nearest electrical and water supplies (which were actually on opposite sides of the circle). This was relatively inexpensive to do, as the concrete had not been poured. Three years later, the same client contacted me to ask for designs to place a large bronze fountain in the traffic circle. One big concern was how to mitigate tearing up the concrete drives. When I told them that pipe sleeves had been laid in place, they were, needless to say, very pleased. It represented a great savings in money, time, and aesthetics (as we did not have to cut and repair trenches in the concrete). This is an example of how infrastructure can be laid in place to accommodate "whatever" will appear at a future time. To build the DCA lagoon, knowing there were plans to create something at a future date, and make no preparations is a good example of stepping over dollars to pick up dimes.
43	Dabob2 Thu 5/29/2008 12:38p	They might not have known EXACTLY what kind of show would be coming to the lagoon, but if they knew any show at all was coming, they could have (and should have) installed certain basics before the concrete was poured. The late 90's were full of such examples of pennywise/pound foolish thinking at all the Disney parks, very much including delayed maintenance (which you just end up paying more for when things fall apart), perhaps at its worst at the MK.
44	oneyepete Thu 5/29/2008 12:39p	Our city does the same thing all the time. They put in the lesser expensive/ make due for the moment water/sewerl lines etc. now to save money only to dig it up two years later to put in something bigger because they didn't plan for growth all in the name of saving money. (our taxes at work)
45	Hans Reinhardt Thu 5/29/2008 2:33p	"I can give you an example based on my own work." I think that's a fair example, however I also think that project's complexity is far different than deciding where to lay infrastructure elements in a lagoon that spans several acres for a Disney spectacle that won't be designed for half a decade. Still, given your expertise, I'll concede that you probably know more about the subject than I do.
46	2001DLFan Thu 5/29/2008 7:58p	<<oneyepete: Our city does the same thing all the time. They put in the lesser expensive/ make due for the moment water/sewerl lines etc. now to save money only to dig it up two years later to put in something bigger because they didn't plan for growth all in the name of saving money. (our taxes at work)>> Well, Disney's approach towards DCA was VERY tightfisted form the start. The infrastructure was an easy mark for reductions as it wouldn't be as noticeable (although the Grizzly Peak was reduced in scale by about half). Just as their decision to NOT bury the power lines in order to save money will require some extra rock work in the new Carsland in order to hide the 100' towers surrounding that area. Disney just has to stop their short sighted attitude when it comes to their parks.
47	Nobody Thu 5/29/2008 9:19p	From post 46: "Just as their decision to NOT bury the power lines in order to save money..." I've yet to have somebody credible tell me that it is actually possible to bury major transmission lines like the ones in question. And if it is possible, what would it take to do so? (Like how deep would they need to be? Would they need minimum spacing between each line? How far from pedestrians would they need to be - in all directions? Where would one decide to "bury" them and then where would they go back up to regular elevation? How much real estate would be necessary for going in and coming back out of the ground? Things like that.) Perhaps there's somebody new on the boards that can answer these old questions.
48	DlandDug Fri 5/30/2008 1:44a	http://www.eei.org/industry_is...port.pdf
49	Nobody Fri 5/30/2008 5:54p	Thanks Dug. I'll check that out in more detail a bit later, but this part of the Executive Summary sticks out: "This report provides a summary of previously completed studies and examines historical performance data for underground and overhead lines to evaluate the benefits and costs of placing more of our nation's existing overhead electric distribution infrastructure underground. (Overhead transmission lines are much more difficult to place underground and were not considered as part of this report.)" Note that last parenthetical sentence. I think that's what we are talking about here. In a report sub-titled "A study on the costs and benefits of undergrounding overhead power lines", the thought of burying major transmission lines was so far out of the question they didn't even bother dealing with it.
50	disneywatcher Sun 6/8/2008 5:08p	>> And now finally those of us who have been on these boards for many years have the answer to whatever became of Barry Braverman after he got shown the door at WDI. He's now doing private consulting for mostly non-profit civic and cultural organizations like schools and museums, helping them with the thematic aspects of their new facility developments. << And he's left behind a multi-million-dollar embarrassment for other people to deal with. And if it's true that the DisCo now is becoming hesitant about overhauling the park -- even though it's long overdue -- then DCA really can be called the gift (from Barry, etc) that keeps on giving. >> I liked the interview and thought well of Barry until he said, "they just don't get it." I'm sure he was in a tight spot between politics and the budget. << The best way to understand a crucial reason why DCA didn't turn out better is to watch early episodes of each season of "American Idol." Observe the variety of truly tone-deaf contestants, fully confident in and even egotistical about their talents, storm off in a huff -- some cursing and giving the finger to the camera -- when they're told they can't sing. Executives at the DisCo like Barry Braverman and Michael Eisner were equivalent to such "singers," totally tone deaf when it came to judging the quality of their work on a Disney theme park.

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