World Events
Topic: All about Mormons...part ??

#	Author	Message
1	X-san Fri 5/30/2008 7:51a	Well, since we've had so much discussion about the Mormon thing, and how it does or doesn't relate to Christianity, I have actually been doing some digging. I found this video. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...d1HbItOo Apparently it has been banned by the Mormon church or something? What I'm wondering is, how much truth is there to it? Is it really indicative of typical Mormon teachings, or is it just total lies and slander? I would really like to know if this is the truth about that Church, because as we've discussed I feel it's a bit disingenuous for Mormons to call themselves "Christians" given the extreme differences in the ways of looking at things but if THIS VIDEO is really close to the truth, there really isn't any question at all!
2	u k fan Fri 5/30/2008 8:14a	I'm at work at the moment, but I'll try and watch later!!!
3	dsnykid Fri 5/30/2008 9:39a	I remember watching this in Sunday School as a kid when we were learning about different churches.. I always thought it was a weird video
4	Mrs ElderP Fri 5/30/2008 9:57a	It's a mixture--Some doctrines that you'd regularly find taught in Sunday School and over the pulpits, some lesser doctrines than have been extrapolated and pushed further than we would take them and a few outright lies. A few points: The first minute or so, God the Father's origins, is totally extrapolated from the following sentence: "As man is God once was, as God is man may become." This is from a poem by Lorenzo Snow, 5th president of the church, based on the teachings of Joseph Smith. In Sunday School we tend to focus on the second half and not dwell on the origins of God. Second (skipping lots of content): We absolutly believe, and teach frequently, that we are spirit children of God, and lived with him in heaven. We also teach frequently that there was a council in heaven, but it differs on a few minor points with the one presented. 1st God gathered his children to present a plan, not ask for ideas. This plan required a Savior, a job which no one could be forced into. It had to be purely voluntary. Lucifer and Christ were there. Lucifer objected to God's plan and presented his own. Christ (the best and the brightest of God's spirit children) agreed to carry out God's plan, exactly the way it was laid out. Lucifer was rejected and cast out, along with a 1/3 of the hosts of heaven that he convinced to come with him, and yes, they are on the earth, and no, they will never recieve bodies. In Sunday School we refer to this event as the War in Heaven. One other quibble, we believe the Saviors atonement to infinate and eternal--covering all times, all spaces, and all generations. There never was another one before it, there will never be another one after it. It is NOT doctrine that some people are born with darker skins because they were less faithful than others. I have no doubt that a few biggoted, local leaders taught this, especially in early part of the 20th century, but it has NEVER been an offical doctrine. There has NEVER been an explination of why those with African heritage were, for a time, not alowed to hold the priesthood, certainly not one involving less worthiness in the life before. Hmmm...A 3rd random point: As for Orson Pratt teaching that Christ had three wives, I've never heard it before. If he did say it, it was never affirmed as doctrine. I've also never heard that Joseph Smith claimed to be a literal decendent of Christ. Near the end they twisted a quote a tad, claiming that Joseph Smith put himself above Christ. This is the actual quote, "Joseph Smith, the Prophet and Seer of the Lord, has done more, SAVE JESUS ONLY, for the salvation of men in this world, than any other man that ever lived in it." (caps mine) it was written by John Taylor (eventual 3rd president of the church) in the days after Joseph's death. Well, like I said, it's such a mishmash that you'd have to take it sentence by sentence, which I don't have the time to do right now. If you have any specific questions I'll answer them.
5	utahjosh Fri 5/30/2008 10:10a	I agree with MrsElderP's post. She's right on. The video takes some of the our doctrines and then extrapolates incorrect assumptions, and exaggerates some of the "strange" things we believe and makes them seem much more strange, especially with the funky music and character design. South Park came closer to the truth then this cartoon.
6	Kar2oonMan Fri 5/30/2008 10:29a	The animation looks like it was done by the guys that did the old Scooby-Doo cartoon series. Maybe that's what they did during hiatus?
7	DlandDug Fri 5/30/2008 12:14p	I thought I would wait for some of my Mormon friends to comment on this before I weighed in. I anticipate there is at least one more voice to be heard from. Melodramatic music aside, this is largely correct as far as Mormon theology goes. As has been pointed out, a few things have been given a definite "sinister" twist. I also find the use of the term "Mormon" troubling in some contexts. I suppose it is because this was made for non-Mormons, and the filmmakers wanted to reinforce that these are LDS teachings. The biggest flaw I spotted was the prominence given the Adam-God doctrine, which has always been problematical for LDS scholars and theologians. (This is the theory that God became Adam and was the literal founder of the human family.) This was considered controversial even in the 19th century, and is doubtless unknown to most Mormons today. Also problematical is the introduction of the idea that Father God (Elohim) physically impregnated Mary. Again, this is an odd point of theology for many Mormons, and should have been left out of this "teaching" video. (Or is this a more common LDS teaching than I have been lead to believe?) The LDS Church teaching that dark skin was a mark to identify "less valiant" members of the human family was a well known and well articulated teaching of the LDS Church for many years. On June 9, 1978 this was repudiated by then President Spencer W. Kimball: "As we have witnessed the expansion of the work of the Lord over the earth, we have been grateful that people of many nations have responded to the message of the restored gospel, and have joined the Church in ever-increasing numbers. This, in turn, has inspired us with a desire to extend to every worthy member of the Church all of the privileges and blessings which the gospel affords. ... witnessing the faithfulness of those from whom the priesthood has been withheld, we have pleaded long and earnestly in behalf of these, our faithful brethren, spending many hours in the Upper Room of the Temple supplicating the Lord for divine guidance. He has heard our prayers, and by revelation has confirmed that the long-promised day has come when every faithful, worthy man in the Church may receive the holy priesthood, with power to exercise its divine authority, and enjoy with his loved ones every blessing that flows therefrom, including the blessings of the temple. Accordingly, all worthy male members of the Church may be ordained to the priesthood without regard for race or color." (Complete text of the Official Declaration here: http://scriptures.lds.org/od/2 ) Far from being an abberant teaching of a few bigoted local leaders, denying priesthood to anyone with dark skins (including blacks, Indians, and Pacific Islanders) was Church doctrine dating back to the time of Joseph Smith in Nauvoo and continuing into the modern era. There are any number of writings readily available on line, or in Church publications. Joseph Fielding Smith, who became tenth President of the LDS Church wrote about the subject in his 1931 book "The Way to Perfection," saying: "Not only was Cain called upon to suffer, but because of his wickedness he became the father of an inferior race. A curse placed upon him and that curse has been continued through his lineage and must do so while time endures. Millions of souls have come into this world cursed with a black skin and have been denied the privilege of Priesthood and the fullness of the blessings of the Gospel. These are the descendants of Cain. Moreover, they have been made to feel their inferiority and have been separated from the rest of mankind from the beginning.... we will also hope that blessings may eventually be given to our negro brethren, for they are our brethren-children of God-not withstanding their black covering emblematical of eternal darkness." As had been true over a century, during President Smith's entire tenure (1970-72) blacks could not enter the LDS priesthood. As stated above, this was changed only in 1978.
8	Elderp Fri 5/30/2008 1:16p	"Apparently it has been banned by the Mormon church or something?" How can a church ban a video? They tell us not to watch it, but if the church was going to ban a video there is harder stuff then this out there. "Far from being an abberant teaching of a few bigoted local leaders, denying priesthood to anyone with dark skins (including blacks, Indians, and Pacific Islanders) was Church doctrine dating back to the time of Joseph Smith in Nauvoo and continuing into the modern era. This isn't true I know lots of Pacific Islanders and Native Americans (unless your talking about India) that have been ordained to the priesthood. There has never been as far as I know a ban on those groups. "this was changed only in 1978." Joseph Smith ordained several black to the priesthood. The priesthood thing didn't come up until Brigham Young. Why?I don't know. Furthermore, for some reason there have been several exceptions to this between President Young and President Kimball. Why some blacks were allowed and others weren't I don't know. "Also problematical is the introduction of the idea that Father God (Elohim) physically impregnated Mary." I have never heard any official doctorine of this. We know that God the Father impregnated Mary, but it is generally believed more to have been done in some divine way. The thing that gets me in and out of the church is lots of people use outside references when talking about the church. As far as official church doctorine goes we recognize The bible: New and Old Testament, The Book of Mormon, Doctorines and Covenants, and the Perl of Great Price. These books contain our official church doctorine. Prophets will clarify issues for us but in general if they want it to be binding they will put it in the Pearl of Great Price (like with what they did with Polygamy and Priesthood). We don't however believe God has to spell every little detail out for us and part of our free agency is we have been given the principles and now it is up to us to learn what that means. This brings up a lot of specualations which can be good but it can also lead to a bunch of wild ideas (as seen in this video). I think this is another reason we have a prophet, if only to pull us back in line.
9	Elderp Fri 5/30/2008 1:19p	"(unless your talking about India)" Before any other speculation starts up. The first Indian members of the church were baptized in 1849 but real work wasn't started until 1954 when a mission was established. There have never been a ban on priesthood based on being an Indian (from India).
10	ecdc Fri 5/30/2008 1:22p	I immediately recognized this as a clip from the film, "The Godmakers," a movie produced by professional anti-Mormon Ed Decker. It likes to take Mormon beliefs and put them in the context of wider Christian beliefs to make them seem as strange as possible. When Mormons are allowed the time to put their beliefs into the context of their other teachings, they naturally don't seem nearly as weird or out there. Anyone could produce a video of common Christian beliefs and present to an unsuspecting, non-Christian audience to shock them - ideas like crucifixion and resurrection, the communion, the rapture, etc., etc. Many things from the Bible could be put in a film about science just to make the Bible look absolutely ridiculous - it certainly wouldn't be hard. "The Godmakers" became infamous for its re-creation of Mormon temple ceremonies. Mormons consider these sacred and of course only believing, "worthy" Mormons are allowed to participate in them in Mormon temples. Decker got a group of former Mormons who still had their ceremonial clothing and filmed them re-enacting the ceremonies for the film. On the one hand, I've long felt that Mormon attempts to keep these things secret is both futile and a little childish. It's a bit like having a "no girls allowed" clubhouse with a password. On the other hand, Decker's use of them in the film offers little insight into Mormonism or Mormon beliefs, and was clearly included for shock value and a "gotcha" to his former religion. In short, there's legitimate discussion to be had over Mormon theology, and even more so (since theology is all speculative; it's all weird, in one sense or another) Mormon practices and policies. But certainly not in the context of "The Godmakers." Ed Decker is a former Mormon who converted to Evangelicalism; he's the ultimate in "my imaginary friend is better and makes more sense than your imaginary friend."

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