World Events
Topic: All about Mormons...part ??

#	Author	Message
11	Mrs ElderP Fri 5/30/2008 1:38p	I mostly agree with Dug. (We're totally looking forward to seeing you in July Dug!) The Adam/God thing I don't know how to deal with. Supposedly Brigham Young tought it, and then recinded it. There are several Volumes of the "Discourses of Brigham Young". I haven't even read one of them cover to cover to actually find the doctrine or the "take-back" (which may not exist). I have never heard it taught in Sunday School, though I have heard it discussed among members privatly. I don't know anyone who believes it. Also, the physical impregnation--I have to go with Dug's assesment of this one. Yes, like many Christians, we believe in the imaculate conception, which is to say that Christ on earth is the literal son of the Father, but like other Christians we claim no insight on how that may have happened. Blacks and the Priesthood continues to be a thorn in the side for most members. While we freely admit that it happened, we don't know why. I admit it looks bad. I've never read the above quote from Joseph Fielding Smith, but I don't think it's false. I just looked up The Mark of Cain in "Mormon Doctrine", considered fairly athoritative by most LDS people, it also claims that the mark of Cain is the dark skin of Africans. All I can say is that the first quote, from Spencer W. Kimball, is cannonized scripture, but the second, from Joseph Fielding Smith, is not, neither is Mormon Doctrine. That the mark of Cain is indicated by dark skin is no longer taught in Sunday School or over the pulpit. In my research I just looked up the Sunday School Manuals too. The Old Testament Lesson covering the story of Cain and Able mentions the mark only to say that often the acts of the parents can influence the lives of their children. The Church History Lesson covering the extention of the priesthood to all worthy males doesn't mention the mark of Cain at all. In church lessons, when we talk about the restrition of the priesthood, we usually mention that in Old Testament times the Lord restricted the priesthood just to the tribe of Levi. Overall, about Blacks and the Priesthood, I have to say that it's a past I'm not 100% comfortable with and I think that church attitudes are changing with my generation. However, it's not nearly enough to make me doubt my church leaders or even begin to consider leaving the church.
12	ecdc Fri 5/30/2008 1:45p	>>Far from being an abberant teaching of a few bigoted local leaders, denying priesthood to anyone with dark skins (including blacks, Indians, and Pacific Islanders) was Church doctrine dating back to the time of Joseph Smith in Nauvoo and continuing into the modern era.<< This isn't quite right. Joseph Smith did repeat popular Christian beliefs that perpetuated the "curse of cain" theory, but unlike his successor Brigham Young, he didn't link it to denial of Priesthood. Joseph Smith personally ordained some black men to the priesthood and was friends with Elijah Abel, a black man who he ordained to the Mormon council of the seventy (though this is different from the group that exists today). Brigham Young first linked the idea of denial of priesthood to the curse of cain in a talk in Utah territory (1852, I think). >>There are any number of writings readily available on line, or in Church publications. Joseph Fielding Smith, who became tenth President of the LDS Church wrote about the subject in his 1931 book "The Way to Perfection," saying:<< Dug is quite right that the policy regarding African-Americans was not a small thing. It was a key component of the church that only became more and more pronounced as the rest of the country embraced civil rights, leaving Mormonism in the dust. But this post continues to oversimplify and misunderstand some basic things that are essential to understand if one is going to say what Mormons believed. In this case, the following background information is key: Joseph Fielding Smith was one of the most prolific Mormon authors and a deeply outspoken leader for many years - long before he became Church President. Because he took to writing his ideas down, something that many Mormon leaders never bother to do, his beliefs exist in book form and can give the impression that "a Mormon leader said this, ergo, Mormons believe it." This is not true, and to quote from books like Smith's, or his son-in-law Bruce R. McConkie's without understanding this, misses an essential of Mormonism and implies beliefs that may or may not be there. For example, Joseph Fielding Smith put forth the idea that blacks may have been "fence sitters" in the Mormon pre-existence. Undoubtedly, many Mormons read his ideas and took to believing them. But other Mormons did not and many Mormon leaders, including Church President at the time, David O. McKay, took exception to the teaching and repudiated it. Therefore, to say that "Mormons believe this" is an oversimplification at best. Some Mormons do believe it, but it was never an official church doctrine or teaching, and you're likely to find more Mormons that don't believe it than do. Another example: Joseph Fielding Smith was a very vocal opponent of evolution. He wrote entire books on it and spoke against it frequently. Conversely, Mormon President (again, at the time Smith was saying these things) David O. McKay said he believed in evolution and took steps to block Smith's efforts from making his anti-evolution books official church manuals and documents. To this day, the Mormon church has never officially said that evolution is false and that strict creationism is true. But one could read Joseph Fielding Smith and come away absolutely convinced that Mormons reject evolution. I know most of what I've written is too much for most and will bore a lot of readers, and I apologize. But I get antsy whenever I hear someone saying "Mormons believe..." and then repeating something *one* Mormon leader might have said. Anyone can look up references online and then state, rather impressively sounding, "Mormon President so and so said such and such." But this does not equate to "Mormons believe" and one must take care if they're going to tell us what Mormons believe. No doubt these kind of subtleties exist in all religions, and I have no doubt I've been terribly guilty of oversimplifying other religion's beliefs or misunderstanding something.
13	utahjosh Fri 5/30/2008 1:48p	ecdc, that was very well put.
14	Mrs ElderP Fri 5/30/2008 1:51p	ecdc--If you were nearby I'd bring you some cookies!
15	ecdc Fri 5/30/2008 1:51p	>>Overall, about Blacks and the Priesthood, I have to say that it's a past I'm not 100% comfortable with and I think that church attitudes are changing with my generation. However, it's not nearly enough to make me doubt my church leaders or even begin to consider leaving the church.<< I posted something much lengthier on this in another thread, so I won't here. Suffice it to say, I think Mormonism would make it much easier on itself and on its more progressive members today if they'd simply just acknowledge the truth. Like nearly all Americans, 19th century Mormon leaders were racist. They instituted policies that were racist, and given the belief in Mormonism's divinity, future leaders were reluctant to make a change. Instead, they've adopted this kind of middle-of-the-road "we don't know" attitude. But in the information age, anyone can Google anything. Anyone can find any dozens of racist statements from previous Mormon leaders. By saying "we don't know" it just makes it look like you're either ignorant of your own past or trying to cover something up. Like I said before, it's almost as if Mormons would rather God be the racist instead of Brigham Young.
16	ecdc Fri 5/30/2008 2:00p	>>ecdc--If you were nearby I'd bring you some cookies!<< Mmmmm...cookies :) I've always been impressed with you and ElderP's comments on Mormonism. I've thought before, if all Mormons were like these two, I'd probably go back to church :) >>ecdc, that was very well put.<< Thanks, Josh. I know you don't always agree with what I have to say on this topic, so I appreciate your willingness to still read what I have to say. I always appreciate your willingness to put yourself out there with what you believe. It's easy to get ganged up on by doing that, and you handle it very well.
17	Elderp Fri 5/30/2008 3:41p	Hey I found a video about Lutherans. I don't think this is a negative video, if it is I appologize. I just want to find out if it is true Lutherans have lots of potlucks. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v...e=bzb302
18	Dabob2 Fri 5/30/2008 4:00p	Oh them Lutherans and their potlucks! Conjuring Garrison Keillor in my mind...
19	DlandDug Fri 5/30/2008 4:12p	>>Yes, like many Christians, we believe in the imaculate conception, which is to say that Christ on earth is the literal son of the Father, but like other Christians we claim no insight on how that may have happened.<< The Immaculate Conception is a unique Catholic doctrine that teaches that Mary herself was immaculately conceived. This is based on the logic that for Christ to have been born without the stain of sin, the vessel, Mary, would have needed to be born without the stain of sin. There is no scriptural basis for this doctrine, and while it has a long history in Catholic tradition, it was declared doctrine only in the 19th century. Christians believe in the Virgin Birth, which is explained in both scripture and tradition. The general belief is that Mary was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit, and conceived without having engaged in sexual intercourse.
20	DlandDug Fri 5/30/2008 4:13p	>>...conceived without having engaged in sexual intercourse.<< See also: Jackson, Michael Aiken, Clay

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